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re: Is Joffrey Baratheon the most despicable character ever written?
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:22 pm to CottonWasKing
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:22 pm to CottonWasKing
That's the one I remember, "I'll wear this as a badge of honor." "Wear it in silence or I'll honor you again." (Which is a great line by the way.) Remember, this was after her brother tried to kill Ned. In the series, Ned asked her if it had happened before and she just shrugged it off. That's the only other mention I remember. I just don't see Jaime sitting on his hands while this is going on.
One time isn't acceptable but its not the same as a constant occurrence either.
One time isn't acceptable but its not the same as a constant occurrence either.
This post was edited on 4/23/12 at 8:26 pm
1
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:25 pm to CottonWasKing
quote:
I can't recall specific instances but the one I do remember made it seem a normal occasion.
I thought it occurred throughout the book?
quote:
But is one time excusable anyway?
It's westeros....people are assholes
Just because Robert didn't use cersi's guile didn't make her any more of a sympathetic character. Also Robert didn't exactly love Joffrey but Joffrey was a vile little bitch from the get go. There was no instances where Robert held any animosity to his other children.
He shouldn't have gotten married...his real love was adventure and war but that really wasn't an option.
This post was edited on 4/23/12 at 8:28 pm
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:29 pm to shinerfan
quote:
That's the one I remember, "I'll wear this as a badge of honor." "Wear it in silence or I'll honor you again." (Which is a great line by the way.) Remember, this was after her brother tried to kill Ned. In the series, Ned asked her if it had happened before and she just shrugged it off. That's the only other mention I remember. I just don't see Jaime sitting on his hands while this is going on.
What is Jamie to do? Kill another king?
Even then maybe it wasn't a normal occurence there was definetely some mental abuse going on with his constant degradation and whoring around embarrassing cersei every step of the way.
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:30 pm to CottonWasKing
quote:
He drove Cersei to what she became and drove Joffrey to what he became.
I suppose it was also Robert that made Cersei abuse Tyrion when he was an infant? Robert may no be Father/Husband of the Year, but to suggest that he is responsible for Cersei and Joffrey being who they are is laughable.
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:32 pm to CottonWasKing
quote:
Even then maybe it wasn't a normal occurence there was definetely some mental abuse going on with his constant degradation and whoring around embarrassing cersei every step of the way.
So now we've resorted to mental abuse?
I guess childhood Robert made childhood cersi love her brother inappropriately by turning her into a narcissist as well?
This post was edited on 4/23/12 at 8:36 pm
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:34 pm to CottonWasKing
quote:
Even then maybe it wasn't a normal occurence there was definetely some mental abuse going on with his constant degradation and whoring around embarrassing cersei every step of the way.
God knows his whoring was awful. And to think he did it to such a faithful woman. I mean, it doesn't count if it's your brother, am I right?
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:34 pm to Tom288
quote:
I suppose it was also Robert that made Cersei abuse Tyrion when he was an infant? Robert may no be Father/Husband of the Year, but to suggest that he is responsible for Cersei and Joffrey being who they are is laughable.
Cersei wasn't a great person but as she said "You know I loved you once."
She at one time strove to be a good wife. She always loved her children. Something Robert never did.
Maybe Cersei was broken before he came along maybe she wasn't but Robert never gave her a chance.
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:35 pm to CottonWasKing
quote:
What is Jamie to do? Kill another king?
If he were beating Cersei he would have. At one time Robert might have been a match for Jaime, but that was years before the story starts.
quote:
Even then maybe it wasn't a normal occurence there was definetely some mental abuse going on with his constant degradation and whoring around embarrassing cersei every step of the way.
I see a lot of mental abuse coming from Cersei as well. Ned was shocked at how Robert had let himself go. A lot of his drinking and whoring was likely just to get away from Cersei for a bit.
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:36 pm to Tom288
Just tell me what Robert did to try to save that marraige? To try to save that kingdom?
This war is his fault.
This war is his fault.
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:38 pm to CottonWasKing
quote:
Maybe Cersei was broken before he came along maybe she wasn't but Robert never gave her a chance.
How many chances did Jaime give her? If you want to talk about "spousal" abuse, then examine that relationship. Even Jaime, her true love (supposedly), was manipulated and abused by Cersei.
Fact is, she's always been a bitch and Joffrey took after his mother.
quote:
This war is his fault.
Some would argue that there would be no war if Robert wasn't assassinated...and who do we have to thank for that?
This post was edited on 4/23/12 at 8:40 pm
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:38 pm to CottonWasKing
quote:
Cersei wasn't a great person but as she said "You know I loved you once."
She also told Sansa she was going to be the fricking queen and bare Joff many sons. She loved power nothing more...nothing less. Se would've given it a shot in the name of power...not exactly a sympathetic character.
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:43 pm to Tom288
quote:
How many chances did Jaime give her? If you want to talk about "spousal" abuse, then examine that relationship. Even Jaime, her true love (supposedly), was manipulated and abused by Cersei. Fact is, she's always been a bitch and Joffrey took after his mother.
I'm not saying that Cersei is a good person.
At one time I stated that she could have been however that was before you reminded me of the torture she issued upon Tyrion.
However that doesn't excuse Robert of the absentee dad he was. (The fact that Joffrey wasn't his doesn't matter he believed that Joffrey was his son and Joffrey believed that Robert was his father).
Maybe he got to Cersei too late however Joffrey may have had a chance if he would've grown up under Robert's influence as opposed to Cersei's.
My point and opinion still remains that Robert is one of the main reasons Joffrey is the way he is. Like someone else said Cersei and Jamie's incest isn't an excuse.
Look at Rhaegar Targaryen. One of the most loved people in the books and he was sired by an incestual relationship with one half being batshit insane.
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:44 pm to CottonWasKing
But they were not Robert kids. I feel like he had to have known if two kings hands figured it.
I
I
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:47 pm to Dire Wolf
quote:
But they were not Robert kids. I feel like he had to have known if two kings hands figured it. I
Robert was not nearly as intelligent as Arryn or Ned.
If Robert would've known he would've erased the Lannisters just like he erased the Targaryens
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:49 pm to CottonWasKing
quote:
Maybe he got to Cersei too late however Joffrey may have had a chance if he would've grown up under Robert's influence as opposed to Cersei's.
I thought cersi was the victim here
quote:
Look at Rhaegar Targaryen. One of the most loved people in the books and he was sired by an incestual relationship with one half being batshit insane.
You just completely refuted your own point. Rhaegar had a batshit crazy, evil father and he turned out ok. Joffrey just had an absent father and he turned into a miserable little count.
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:51 pm to CottonWasKing
quote:
Robert was not nearly as intelligent as Arryn or Ned.
If Robert would've known he would've erased the Lannisters just like he erased the Targaryens
I'm with you on that one, but still, maybe he would have felt a stronger bond if the kids were his. Subconsciously.
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:51 pm to St Augustine
quote:
Joffrey just had an absent father and he turned into a miserable little count.
And if it was Robert's parenting skills then why aren't Tommen and Myrcella evil little bastards?
Tyrion even makes a remark where he says Myrcella has her mother's good looks but fortunately lacks her mother's nature.
Cersei and Joffrey are just bad apples and Robert had nothing to do with it.
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:56 pm to St Augustine
quote:
I thought cersi was the victim here
No I always said Joffrey's cuntishness was due to Robert being a bad father.
quote:
You just completely refuted your own point. Rhaegar had a batshit crazy, evil father and he turned out ok. Joffrey just had an absent father and he turned into a miserable little count.
How? People like to point at Cersei and Jamie incestual relationship as cause for Joffrey when that is not an excuse that is all I'm referring to.
My point is it was Robert's job to teach Joffrey how to be a man and how to be a king and he completely failed in that because Robert never learned how to do those things himself. Joffrey is very very much like Robert even though he is not his son.
You don't think Robert was sadistic and evil? He sent assassins to kill a pregnant Daenery's. He pardoned Jamie Lannister for breaking the most sacred oath in westeros. He pardoned Gregor Clegane and Tywin Lannister for the rape of Rhaegars wife and the murder of his children (losing the support of Dorne, one of the most powerful provinces in Westeros, in that act.)
Joffrey is a terrible human being and a terrible king and he learned it from Robert.
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:58 pm to Tom288
quote:
Tommen and Myrcella evil little bastards?
Do we know enough about them to make the judgement that they aren't?
Posted on 4/23/12 at 8:59 pm to CottonWasKing
quote:
Do we know enough about them to make the judgement that they aren't?
There is nothing to suggest otherwise. But there are observations from other characters, including family members, that supports the view that they aren't.
This post was edited on 4/23/12 at 9:00 pm
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