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re: In tolkiens universe is it ever explained why Sauron doesn't notice the ring

Posted on 3/7/17 at 2:45 am to
Posted by athenslife101
Member since Feb 2013
20487 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 2:45 am to
quote:

most powerful evil being ever?


Not even close to being the most powerful evil creature in the Tolkien universe. Melkor takes that title and Sauron is just a minor underling/captain to him.
Posted by TheTideMustRoll
Birmingham, AL
Member since Dec 2009
10699 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 4:23 am to
To answer your question about why there were no technological advancements during the history of Middle Earth you really have to understand who Tolkien was and why he spent his free time writing about hobbits and Elves. Tolkien grew up during the tail end of the Industrial Revolution and mentioned in his letters seeing the changes that industrialization and technological advancement wrought on the small town where he spent his childhood, and how much he hated it. He also fought in the First World War, and saw his sons fight in the Second, so he experienced firsthand the true destructive power of a fully industrialized society. His writings about Middle Earth, a place where technology doesn't really exist, were as much a reaction against those experiences as they were an exploration of language for him. It is only within this context that you can truly understand the Scouring of the Shire (which, if you have only seen the movies, you will not know about at all). "Sharky's" destruction of the peaceful, rural Shire in order to build ugly mills and smoke-belching factories was an echo of Tolkien's childhood experiences, and the returning hobbits' ability to roll that destruction back through magical means is no more than an expression of Tolkien's own desire to return the English countryside to the way it was in his youth. In the end, technological advance is not, after all, absent from Middle Earth - instead, it enters the story as a tool of ultimate evil (its last remaining tool, in fact), and it is decisively defeated.

Now, if you want an answer to your question that makes sense completely within the bounds of the story, I suppose that if humanity had access to magic on the scale of the Elves or the Numenoreans, we would not put very much emphasis on technological advance either. There would not be much need for it.
This post was edited on 3/7/17 at 5:54 am
Posted by Jizzy08
Member since Aug 2008
12383 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 9:03 am to


I enjoy reading your posts on this stuff. Thanks!
Posted by TheTideMustRoll
Birmingham, AL
Member since Dec 2009
10699 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 10:04 am to
Thank you! I'm glad someone else can enjoy the depth of my geekery.
Posted by athenslife101
Member since Feb 2013
20487 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 10:06 am to
I think the term "magic" might not be wrong, but i think it might give people the wrong idea. Magic in the traditional sense of the word is rather super rare. It's super hard to explain
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 10:12 am to
Posted by Thurber
NWLA
Member since Aug 2013
15405 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 10:13 am to
Posted by TheTideMustRoll
Birmingham, AL
Member since Dec 2009
10699 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 10:41 am to
That's true, magic in Tolkien's world is not really the same as magic in, say, the legend of King Arthur. The ability to use magic in Middle Earth is an innate power and does not appear to be "learnable," although the knowledge of some things (such as how to forge Rings of Power) does appear to be transferable from one magic-wielder to another. The Valar (the gods) and Maiar (immortal beings roughly equivalent to angels; Sauron was one, and the Balrog, and so were Gandalf and the other Wizards) could obviously use it, and Elves had the ability to use it (which was amplified if they had spent time in Valinor, to the point that the strongest of them were able to contend with the weaker Maiar). The Men of Numenor had the ability to use it in a limited way, but other Men did not. Dwarves and Orcs did not appear to be able to use it at all.

The above is only my thought on the matter, and I don't claim it to be the "right" answer. I don't believe Tolkien ever goes into much detail about how magic works.
Posted by Scoob
Near Exxon
Member since Jun 2009
23524 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 10:55 am to
Good point about Tolkien's opposition to industrialization. That's something left out of the movies, but it was a major emphasis. The good guys were 'green'; the Elves and Dwarves were advanced but highlighted the natural beauty of their environments, where the bad guys ripped trees down and poisoned the earth.

Another answer about lack of technology is the "Mad Max" post-apocalypse concept.

Mad Max has barren, post-nuclear wastelands, and the people are way behind us in tech.

Tolkien's world has evidence of even more powerful destruction-
the defeat of Morgoth to end the First Age didn't leave a lifeless desert, it resulted in the complete physical destruction of Beleriand. All the lands the Elves lived in are now literally gone, including mountain ranges; and the sea now covers it. Imagine the amount of force expended to blast the western US to the point that the Pacific coast is now the East Bank of the Mississippi River... mind-boggling.
The First Age "tech"- Earandil fought the dragons in the skies with his ships... so concievably flight once capable, but lost to those left behind in Middle Earth after that war. There were other mentions of Elvish wonders, that Men couldn't comprehend and labelled Elvish Magic, but Tolkien interestingly stated wasn't magic, but simply great skill and craftsmanship.

They never went into detail with everything Numenor had built, but they made advancements in lifespan to hundreds of years, and "the might of Numenor" made Sauron with the Ring surrender without a fight. He did have a plan to corrupt from within, but Tolkien did emphasize that the battle would have been a decisive victory, had it been fought.
And again, Numenor was lost, blasted off the face of Middle Earth, with only relics of unconceived power left behind.

The Last Alliance that defeated Sauron at the end of the Second Age left the Emyn Muil (the barren, razor sharp rocks that Gimli describes), and the Dead Marshes, lifeless muck. That's over a thousand years ago, and it's still lifeless and barren... that suggests that FAR more force and destruction was inflicted on those sites than on any real battleground (we're less than 100 years removed from WW2, and if not for monuments, you'd never know what happened at battlegrounds in Europe, or at ground zero in Japan). As Tolkien states, these wars ended Ages.

In history, we see the loss of technology in far less violent manner; look at how much time we lost after the fall of the Roman Empire.

If you wanted to, you could take a hard SF approach to Middle Earth, and it would work. You have multiple competing races (not just factions like Earth) striving to dominate the planet, and every bit of tech is focused on eradicating the threat to your continued existence as a species. In the end, mankind wins, they integrate the dwarves and hobbits, and the Elves leave the planet. The orcs and trolls die out. But it would involve several arms races getting to about where we are, followed by nuclear battles, reboots of society almost back to the Stone Age, before the final conclusion is reached. And to do so, you would have far advanced beings involved- the Valar and wizards, 'not of this earth' and trying not to break things, and Morgoth and Sauron, same outside species, but actively setting up shop and trying to create a planet empire. Removing Morgoth took a war that destroyed half a continent, the 'good guys' didn't want to go do that again against Sauron, so they did it with aide and assistance instead. You finally get rid of them at the end.
Posted by TheTideMustRoll
Birmingham, AL
Member since Dec 2009
10699 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:16 pm to
Yeah, the "post-apocalyptic" perspective of LOTR is something that is never explicitly spelled out in the books. It's only through reading the Silmarillion that the true fallen state of Middle Earth at the end of the Third Age becomes clear. It's interesting that in the time of The Hobbit and LOTR a single dragon and a single Balrog were enough to completely overthrow the two strongest Dwarven fortresses in the world, yet in the Silmarillion, Morgoth fielded an entire army of dragons, and Balrogs served as the officers of his regular army. The power with which the Elves contended in the Wars of the Silmarils was orders of magnitude beyond anything the Free Peoples could have imagined.

To those who have stuck with this incredibly nerdy yet satisfying discussion, I offer some examples of the art of Angus McBride. If you aren't familiar with it, McBride basically defined what LOTR looked like prior to the movies. His art was what I imagined when I was a kid, journeying through the Mirkwood of my mind with Bilbo and the Dwarves, or battling Orcs in the darkness of Moria with the Fellowship. His work will always be the "real" LOTR to me.









Posted by Scoob
Near Exxon
Member since Jun 2009
23524 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 2:35 pm to
quote:

That's true, magic in Tolkien's world is not really the same as magic in, say, the legend of King Arthur. The ability to use magic in Middle Earth is an innate power and does not appear to be "learnable," although the knowledge of some things (such as how to forge Rings of Power) does appear to be transferable from one magic-wielder to another. The Valar (the gods) and Maiar (immortal beings roughly equivalent to angels; Sauron was one, and the Balrog, and so were Gandalf and the other Wizards) could obviously use it, and Elves had the ability to use it (which was amplified if they had spent time in Valinor, to the point that the strongest of them were able to contend with the weaker Maiar). The Men of Numenor had the ability to use it in a limited way, but other Men did not. Dwarves and Orcs did not appear to be able to use it at all.

The above is only my thought on the matter, and I don't claim it to be the "right" answer. I don't believe Tolkien ever goes into much detail about how magic works.
There were several levels of "magic" in Tolkien's work, and it was based at least in part on the hierarchy of the races.

You have Eru/Illuvatar, who basically translates over to our concept of The One God, omnipotent. He orchestrated (pun intended, for those who've read the books ) creation, and sits back letting it unfold. He has acted only once in the course of the story, after we get to the point of there being actual living beings... he removed Numenor, if I remember right.

You have the Ainur, which were the Valar and Maia. These translate to the Olympian Gods, capable of real magic, and some were very powerful... but they are limited to within the world (or perhaps, the Universe, reality, etc). Melkor/Morgoth was the single most powerful of these, but has taken on the role of Lucifer basically (rebellious vs Eru, Enemy of all others). He's in contention with the Valar, who mostly have 1:1 analogues to Olympians or Norse Gods.

Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast are Maia, and thus spirits or angels/demons. So are the Balrogs. They are all magnitudes more powerful than living beings, and they can do magic too.

The Elves are "alive", and can't do "real magic", but they are different then Men. They don't die like we do, they don't grow old or sick. If slain, their spirits don't leave this universe, they travel to Mandos, a place located in the West with the Valar, and then continue to exist there. So the Elves killed in battle aren't truly "dead and gone", they have left to the West, and are limited in their ability to travel around there (I think). They, especially the Noldor strain, love to make things, and since they live thousands of years, they become skilled in their craft. Their "magic" is the results of this craft. It would be like a guy like Da Vinci having thousands of years of clear-minded thinking, to work on his inventions, rather than having only 50-odd years, and then passing it down to the next. Just imagine what could have been invented in that context...!
Regarding their spiritual 'magic', Tolkien conceived of the world having multiple planes of existence, and the Elves can observe them all, where we can't. Thus, when you see Elves shining when Frodo puts on the Ring, he's in another plane, invisible to Men, but still visible to those trained to sense it.
Those who were in the West with the Valar can do so, those who never went West can't.
The Elves of Tranduil and the common Elves of Lorien never went West; but Galadriel and some other have been there, and they perceive that plane of existence. The Rings seem to work in that plane.

The Elves made the Palantirs, which allowed you to communicate across great distances (and even view across time per the books, if you could control it enough). This "magic" could simply be a far more advanced version of an iPhone with Facetime (which, itself, would be magical to people 100 yrs ago). Sauron "hacked" the Palantir network, so that anyone who uses one dials him.
They also made weapons; Gandalf and Frodo carried blades made by the Elves of Gondolin in the First Age, that glow in the presence of Orcs and can cut through almost anything. (Movies don't show Gandalf's blade doing that, for whatever reason). These blades are far superior to anything, techwise, otherwise used by anyone in LOTR.

Mithril, if I remember right, was a metal that resulted from a collaboration of Elves and Dwarves in the Second Age. Extremely strong and light, glows in moonlight, mined by the Dwarves in Moria and worked by the Elves (Celebrimbor etc) in Eregion. Frodo's armor is made of that, as were the doors of Moria and possibly the door to the Lonely Mountain. Another lost tech.

The blades that were given to the Hobbits by Bombadil were made with Numenorean tech, and belonged to royalty from the Northern Realm, that fell a long time before (that's Aragorn's lineage, he wasn't from Gondor, he was descended from the kings of Arnor). There was something (spells? If we don't have magic, then it is again technology) designed into these blades that were intended to work against their main enemy, the Witch King of Angmar, who is the lead Nazgul. Merry stabbed him in the foot on the field at Gondor with one of these blades, which broke his protective "shielding", and allowed Eowyn to strike him down.
Aragorn's blade Narsil, which was the same blade that Isildur used to cut the Ring from Sauron's hand, was made by the same Numenorean tech, and worked the same way.

"Modern" swords in LOTR don't have any effect against these foes, so it would seem like a lot of lost tech and "magic".

There may be a measure of genetic programming in here too. Of the various levels of races, there was ONE union of Elves and Maia, that of Elwe and Thingol, that produced Luthien. So Luthien was half Elve and half Ainur, and she married Beren, a Man. I think you can trace the heritage down from them to Aragorn, so that Aragorn and his blood relatives have a strain of the Ainur (the Divine) in them.
This line includes Elrond, so he is not just "half Elf", but has some Divine in him too. He chose to be Elvin, his twin Elros chose to be a mortal, (as did Arwen). Elros was the first king of Numenor, if I remember... so Aragorn was a distant cousin of Arwen.
Posted by TheTideMustRoll
Birmingham, AL
Member since Dec 2009
10699 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 4:45 pm to
The "technology rather than magic" method of reading Tolkien that you propose is novel to me. I had never considered it from that perspective. That said, I must admit I don't find it appealing. I don't believe, for reasons I already mentioned, that such an approach would have appealed to Tolkien himself. But, neither do I believe that he had a D&D-type-system in mind, either, with spellbooks and scrolls and that sort of thing. Rather, magic seems in the books to flow from some sort of divine reservoir of ethereal power. Those who are able to wield this power can use it to achieve any number of things, limited only by their innate capacity to use it and their skill in doing so. I believe this is what Tolkien meant when he talked about the Elves being "skillful" and "crafty." This is why elvish weapons, even though they are physically no more than particularly well-made versions of the same weaponry other races make and use, are so much more powerful than they - because they are imbued with this ethereal power.

Again, just my personal thoughts on the subject.
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
39853 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 4:51 pm to
quote:

But during that ~50 year timeframe he has the ringwraiths investigating what happened to the ring after he lost it. It just takes that long for them to follow the breadcrumb trail to Bilbo's house.
What's the explanation in TFOTR for when the ringwraiths are literally 2 feet from Frodo and the ring and they don't instantly discover it?
Posted by TheTideMustRoll
Birmingham, AL
Member since Dec 2009
10699 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 5:20 pm to
They have only a limited ability to be able to sense its presence. Nothing more than that. And if I remember correctly, the Ringwraith in question was called away in the middle of his search by a signal from the other Ringwraiths.
Posted by Scoob
Near Exxon
Member since Jun 2009
23524 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 5:27 pm to
Well, there's magic, and then there's other stuff. The Elves seem amused with the Hobbits' amazement at certain things. The ropes, the cloaks, the lembas bread, all these things seem to have a mystical quality in the eyes of others, but to the Elves they are simply well-crafted items.

The Elves valued lore and knowledge, which it the root of technology (they learned how to make things).

That's the difference I suggested, and it doesn't make it less magical... but there's a difference between willing a Magic Ring into existence, and learning all the craft and skills necessary to forge one.

The Ainur were involved with the creation of Arda, the world, and they understood the fabric of reality, and how to work with it (true magic outside the reach of the lesser races). The lesser races knew how to build things that gave them enhanced abilities, and that is a technological achievement.

Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
39853 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 5:34 pm to
quote:

They have only a limited ability to be able to sense its presence. Nothing more than that. And if I remember correctly, the Ringwraith in question was called away in the middle of his search by a signal from the other Ringwraiths.
I thought it was Pippin throwing a stick...which begs my original question.
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
39853 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 5:36 pm to
quote:

My question is, if these folks have been around for thousands of years, how come there were seemingly no technologic advancements in all that time? I'm not saying Frodo needed an iPhone with iMaps on it, but at least a cannon or something. They were literally using the same weapons Isealdor used.
Same question for Game of Thrones. Controlled flammable materials are still considered to be the shite.
Posted by Hawgnsincebirth55
Gods country
Member since Sep 2016
18523 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 6:01 pm to
Yeah I look at it like in terms of the elder scrolls video game series and thatvthe elves are master enchaters or smiths who can make special weapons that other simply do not yet have the knowledge to do so yet. Like if a human could live as long as the elves and master a certain trade they would be just as good as the elves
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