I'll ask this on this board: LOTR, Saruman

No.

Staff was broken. Gandalf mentioned that while his other powers were gone, he still had his voice and to be wary.

Also, as Saruman had apparently bound himself to Sauron and the One Ring (despite his own designs), his fate was similarly tied to to it.

So, no, his corporeal body was killed and because of his treachery, his spirit faded to nothing (as opposed to going to the West or being "rebooted" [like Gandalf after the Balrog]).

ETA: There is no detailed discussion of Saruman's ring, but it was not one of the three (Elrond, Gandalf and Galadriel had those). So if it was a Ring of Power, it would have had to have been a Dwarven ring (the Nine Rings of Men were the Nazgul). All Rings of Power were negated when the One Ring was destroyed.

Saruman was ensnared by Sauron through his use of the Palantir of Orthanc, not his possession of a Ring of Power.

Don't give Amazon any more ideas.

Just kidding. It's an interesting theory.

quote:

---

So, is Saruman the Illuminati? The Military/Industrial Complex that controls countries, making new means of warfare and running things from the shadows? Why would he NOT be that? It was always his game, that and being the ultimate smooth talker, and it would seem the world of Men has always been driven by that pursuit.

---

Were people talking about this back then?

quote:

---

I’m not very well-versed on the lore, but Gandalf returned as Gandalf the White after sacrificing himself for the fellowship. Seems like he came back more pure and "beautiful" based on his actions.

---

Gandalf basically had a rebirth/reincarnation and when he came back he had his full power. More wisdom. More control over elements like light and fire. He was now the leader of the Istari, as Saruman was previously. He came back white because wizards are ranked basd off their power, white being the most powerful. Power came with that rank.

quote:

---

Would Saruman return more monstrous? Say like a "Saruman the Orc"?

---

I think answering this answers the OP's question. Gandalf was sent back by either Eru (who is basically God) or the Valar to finish his task. That tells me they didn't have to send him back. So I'm sure when Saruman died either Eru or the Valar had the option of what to do with him just like they did Gandalf. There would be no reason for them to keep him in a state or position to have any influence or ever grow in power again.

He is dead, because can choose what to do with the angles. He appealed to the West at death and was rejected.

quote:

---

If true, why did they not just get rid of Sauron? I know nothing about the lore of Lord of the Rings other than what the movies portrayed.

---

It's hard to read The Silmarillion and not see Biblical correlations. I think it's like God giving men free will to make their own decisions, not predestination. He's not micro managing but does provide blessing. Same thing happens in real life, people as why is God letting all these bad things happen. Whether someone believes that is the case in life or not is kind of irrelevant because that was Tolkiens belief. So Eru isn't a micro manager and let's free will take place.

I would say similiar to God providing blessing to help his will take place/fulfill prophecy, Eru did the same thing. Gandalf at one point told Frodo:

"Surely you don’t disbelieve the prophecies, because you had a hand in bringing them about yourself? You don’t really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck, just for your sole benefit? You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all"

I had to google that quote, I'm not that big of a nerd

Saruman is either completely destroyed or suffers a similar fate as Sauron after the destruction of the one ring.

Here is Gandalf's explanation of Sauron's fate after the one ring's destruction:

Sauron will be maimed forever, becoming a mere spirit of Malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape.

Saruman COULD do this, and he COULD make his own Ring, totally independent of Sauron's.

You have to consider the background of the Maia at play here.

Arda, the World (Universe), was created empty by Eru. The Ainur (Valar and Maia) had to build it.

Short summary of the Maia in discussion: Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast.

Sauron was a graduate of Aule School of Technology.
Gandalf, from Lorien School of Philosophy.
Radagast, from Yavannah School of Agriculture.

Saruman was ALSO from Aule Tech
He has the same training and education on how things are made, and how things work, that Sauron does.

Aule, being the Valar smith (Vulcan or Hephaestus basically), was the one that MADE stuff, and taught the Noldor (thus the Silmarils, the Palantirs etc), the Dwarves, etc.

Sauron, with his background education, knew there was a "magic" energy that could be tapped into, like 'the internet'. He knew that you could build devices that would use that magic (a computer), but you'd need a connection (a modem).
So he collaborated with Celebrimbor, and shared a lot of knowledge... but he did not teach Celebrimbor the principles about the access point in general. He only gave him a single access, which tied everything to the One Ring.
The One Ring was basically the modem or router. Celebrimbor was way over his head, building nice pc's maybe, but no matter what he did, it all was locked into Sauron's "wifi connection". That way, Sauron could control everything.
And that way, when the One Ring was unmade, all connections were lost.

Now, if you remember, there was discussions among the Wise about what would happen if the One were destroyed. Some thought the Three would be free, some thought the Three would stop working (as happened).

Saruman, being the Aule Tech grad, most certainly worked out the issue, and correctly understood that the One was the connection, and it it were unmade, all the current Rings would fail.
That's because he understood EXACTLY what they were, in concept.

He would understand that the device (a Ring) could work, but also understand that he'd have to start from scratch, and devise his own connection. He PROBABLY could make one near in quality to the Seven or Nine, but if he didn't do the necessary work, if he just copy-pasted the code used to make the existing ones, his ring would instantly connect to Sauron's LAN, and he'd be screwed. It's stated multiple times, he never intended to serve under Sauron, he wanted to independently take things over himself.

So if he had gotten to the point of making a ring, he'd have worked it out to where he made his own connection. Once that was done, the rest is simply improving the end-user aspect (making the rings 'stronger' or 'better', like getting a better CPU in a computer).

quote:

---

If you believe that Sauron died in the way that Gandalf did, then the point doesn't make sense/irrelevant. If for some unknown reason when he died it was a different way/something different happened to him than Gandalf, I guess you could go wild conspiracy.

---

Neither Sauron nor Gandalf actually die, in the same sense as mortal Men. They have a Fea (spirit), and a Hroa (body). "Death" to them is the destruction of the Hroa, at which point the Fea is unbound and "naked"; and then the question becomes whether they have the power to reconstruct the Hroa.

quote:

---

But Eru chose to resurrect/reincarnate/bring back to life Gandalf

---

That's an interpretation of the movies; in the books it is CLEAR that Gandalf is sent back by the Valar, not Eru Himself.

It's this detail that makes the books much different than the movies. Neither the Ainur (spirits of power, such as the Valar or the Maia), nor the Elves depart Arda. Their Fea is bound to Arda, and when they die, they travel. Elves go to the Halls of Mandos, and eventually are given another body (Hroa).
Gandalf also went back to Valinor, and as his quest/mission was unfulfilled, the Valar sent him back; presumably they also gave him his body too.

Sauron, in Silmarillion, faced similar "death" of Hroa, when he battled Huan. Huan had him by the throat, and no matter what he shapeshifted into (werewolf, snake, bat, or "manlike" form), he could not escape.
Luthien told him unless he conceded control of the tower, Huan would 'kill' him (his body), and his naked spirit would have to go back to Morgoth, and face whatever punishment Morgoth so chose for failure.
So that establishes Sauron would return to HIS master, who presumably could restore his body/hroa. But probably wouldn't be nice about things in the process.

In the Second Age, after making the Ring, he left it in Mordor and went to Numenor as hostage. He managed to convince the Numenoreans to frick up and attack the West, at which point Eru completely destroyed Numenor, Sauron included. His spirit/fea arose from the destruction, returned to Mordor, and he reformed (presumably because he left the bulk of his power in the Ring, it didn't take very long. But he forever lost the shapeshifting ability he had before, so he was now stuck with an unchanging body, which was terrible to look upon).

In the battle of the Last Alliance, Sauron's body/hroa was again 'killed'. In the books, he was already down, as were Elendil and Gil Galad. Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the shards of Narsil as he was down, and took it. (That's another change from the movies, where he was still 'alive' and fighting).

quote:

---

"But Sauron was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own."

---

He was again able to reform, although it took a LOT longer. He appeared as the Necromancer,

quote:

---

'Gandalf to Elrond, after going to Dol Guldur to spy on the Necromancer:

"True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Ulari (Nazgul) as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again & now grows apace..."

---

and much longer before he declared openly. As stated in the books, Gollum looked upon him:

quote:

---

`That would be Minas Ithil that Isildur the son of Elendil built ' said Frodo. `It was Isildur who cut off the finger of the Enemy.'
`Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum shuddering. 'And He hated Isildur's city.'

---

So Gollum confirms there are only 4 fingers on the Black Hand. That's a serious detail that a hobbit would know thousands of years after that battle.

The point of this all is that Sauron had the power to take shape again. It would take time, but he had done it twice.
When the Ring was destroyed, that destroyed the power he had transferred into it; and thus he lost the bulk of his power forever.
Ironically, if he had never transferred that to the Ring, he likely never gets utterly defeated, and wins the long game.

As that all applies to Saruman: he is the same type of entity as Sauron, presumably lesser in power (at least while on Middle Earth). He presumably could take shape again as Sauron did. The Valar won't do it for him as they did for Gandalf, so it's on him to do so.

If he stashed the bulk of his essence in a ring (as Sauron did), whatever other purpose that ring would have, it would also be a reservoir he could reclaim, to quickly power back up.

quote:

---

Also, just from a very basic point of view, this would be taking it way past something Tolkien intended it to be taken. He was not making it that complex or in a different way than how 99.99999999% of readers understand the story ends

---

Tolkien had always expressed that Middle Earth was Earth, and that the stories are histories as taken from the Red Book of Westmarch (the hobbit's copy of what they had recorded, from the knowledge of Elrond, Aragorn etc). It was his history of "fairy", wherein he basically reconciles fairy tales, other mythology and legends, with biblical and known histories.

Elves are gone because their time has passed, and it's now the time of Men.
Saruman, as we see clearly, was more interested in Men than Elves, and his focus was on industry and invention. He devised new means of warfare, and employed all sorts of intrigue and influence to run things from behind a veil.
You look at Western Civ history from before Rome, and the main factors of every great civilization was their advance in military tech and tactics, and the increased industrialization. Conquests drive history.

It's not hard to extrapolate that Men fell under the designs of Saruman, when you look at it.

quote:

---

Neither Sauron nor Gandalf actually die, in the same sense as mortal Men.

---

I know that When you're talking to someone that doesn't know lore it's just kind of easier to use a death/reincarnation explanation. Just like when you said Sauron faced a similar "death" in the Silmarillion..

quote:

---

That's an interpretation of the movies; in the books it is CLEAR that Gandalf is sent back by the Valar, not Eru Himself.

---

Huh? The word Eru isn't even mention in FOTR and TT books, much less the movies. When was it stated that Eru was who did it in the movies and clear that the Valar did it in the books?

quote:

---

So that establishes Sauron would return to HIS master, who presumably could restore his body/hroa. But probably wouldn't be nice about things in the process.

---

quote:

---

So that establishes Sauron would return to HIS master, who presumably could restore his body/hroa. But probably wouldn't be nice about things in the process.

---

At what point in time are we talking about here?

quote:

---

The point of this all is that Sauron had the power to take shape again. It would take time, but he had done it twice.

---

That does not prove that point at all. It's laid out pretty plainly in ROTK.

"If it [the Ring] is destroyed, then he will fall, and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed."
—The Return of the King, "The Last Debate"

I mean that's pretty plain.

quote:

---

As that all applies to Saruman: he is the same type of entity as Sauron, presumably lesser in power (at least while on Middle Earth). He presumably could take shape again as Sauron did.

---

Since Sauron can in fact not take shape, that kind of makes null this weird fan theory.

quote:

---

It's not hard to extrapolate that Men fell under the designs of Saruman, when you look at it.

---

Seeing that the book was released almost 70 years ago and the movies 20 years ago and it's just now that one guy on YouTube came up with this theory that Saruman wins by having to use some mental gymnastics to get someone to try and reason on it or infer that is what happened.