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re: Game of Thrones - S5:E5 - "Kill the Boy" - BOOK READERS
Posted on 5/11/15 at 10:20 am to Bamatab
Posted on 5/11/15 at 10:20 am to Bamatab
quote:
I've always thought it seemed crazy that Dany is/was so intent on trying to hold Meereen to the point where she was willing to marry someone from there, when her ultimate goal is to conquer Westeros. I mean. why even bother. It's not like she could rule all of Westeros and Meereen at the same time.
ETA: Or at this point (where the show currently is), did/does Dany still even plan on going to Westeros, or has she given up on that in order to rule Meereen instead?
She doesn't take over a place just because she can, she takes over a place to cure it of unjust rule. She's learned that if she leaves it to the locals, things degrade quickly once she leaves. What we're seeing is her groping for a solution because she wants to leave a better place in her wake, not the normal feeding frenzy of "the strongest survive".
I think she also sees this area as her "base". She can't go on to conquer Westeros if she can't keep control of her base.
1
Posted on 5/11/15 at 10:22 am to 68wDoc68w
quote:
I just re-read dance..... why would jorah take the black?
Another hope of mine in this series. Jeor's dying wish was for Sam to let Jorah know he was forgiven in his father's eyes and to request that he came home to take the black. Assuming there will even be a Night's Watch after the Wall comes down.
Posted on 5/11/15 at 10:22 am to FalseProphet
I know he wasn't in this episode but... Is anyone else aggravated with what they have done to Loras.
I hate how they have made him an idiot.
In the book he a great warrior, even Jamie has mad respect for him. Yes he was gay in the book but it was done in a subtle way.
He joined the Kingsguard not only for sister but also because he was so heart broken.
He complete the siege of Dragonstone in 10 days,
but in the show he has absolutely no depth.
Loras link
I hate how they have made him an idiot.
In the book he a great warrior, even Jamie has mad respect for him. Yes he was gay in the book but it was done in a subtle way.
He joined the Kingsguard not only for sister but also because he was so heart broken.
He complete the siege of Dragonstone in 10 days,
but in the show he has absolutely no depth.
Loras link
This post was edited on 5/11/15 at 10:24 am
Posted on 5/11/15 at 10:26 am to Mr. Wayne
quote:=/=
he is Tywins son
quote:
Not only is no other character as smart as Tywin, Tyrion is actually smarter.
To me, there is just too much adding up to him being more than the only unpretty Lannister in creation.
quote:
a mother who died giving him birth and a father that hated him for it.
Maybe his father hated him bc he suspected/knew that he was not his. Tywin even said that the only reason he abided him was because "I could not prove that you were not mine." and "you are no son of mine" It could be that Tywin, even if he had suspicion that Aery's raped Joanna acted as though Tyrion was his bc that was better than the shame of having been cuckolded by Aerys who was always shaming Tywin.
The story about Tyrion's deformities at birth are remarkably like the description of Daenerys' stillborn Rhaego, complete with tail and scales.
Targaryen's, including Danny, kill mothers during childbirth too. Giving birth to twins is more of a dangerous childbirth than a dwarf, and Jo made it through that o.k.
There's so much more, features, dragon dreams, etc. that I don't have time to go into, but suffice to say, he's a central character and I think much more remains to be seen.
Posted on 5/11/15 at 10:28 am to Mr. Wayne
quote:
I can see why people believe this theory, I just hate it more than any other. First off, he is Tywins son. Not only is no other character as smart as Tywin, Tyrion is actually smarter. Secondly, I think it's a huge disservice to Tyrion. Not only does it make him an actual bastard, "all dwarves are bastards in their fathers eyes", it takes away from his character IMO. He is the result of a mother who died giving him birth and a father that hated him for it. It takes away from his being the one to kill Tywin and really brings nothing to the table. Plus I want him to inherit Casterly Rock and end up with Sansa in the end. Sansa has had one person be kind and honest with her in the series and it's the only one she hasn't given a chance. Think it will say a lot for her character if she grows to love Tyrion.
Exactly. I loathe the theory entirely. It does nothing storywise but damage character relationships and makes them meaningless. Really, all it turns Tywin into is the Queen from Snow White or Lady Tremaine. I think that people think that it's required in order for Tyrion to ride a dragon (which I see no reason why that's a requirement) and want to damage the relationship between these characters in order to do it I don't think understand what makes a story interesting.
Posted on 5/11/15 at 10:32 am to 68wDoc68w
quote:
I know he wasn't in this episode but... Is anyone else aggravated with what they have done to Loras.
I said this on the previous page:
"Loras is supposed to be the epitome of the finesse warrior (as a counterpoint to brute strength of cats like King Robert or the Cleganes) - a new Jaime (thus his position as Kingsguard in the books) - but in the show, they're making him more the male Brienne, perverse mirror images of each other. That effort could have been directed in better ways, IMHO."
In the books, Loras is almost the merger of Balon Swann and Jaime Lannister - noble, loyal, a great fighter, arguably the best in Westeros at the time of the death of Robert Baratheon, the War of the 5 Kings and aftermath.
They've made him a one-note joke in the television series.
Posted on 5/11/15 at 10:32 am to Bard
quote:
I think she also sees this area as her "base". She can't go on to conquer Westeros if she can't keep control of her base.
Agree but I think it is more of a trial run for her. She entered Mereen thinking she was in complete control and that it would be good training for her while her dragons grew. Then she made around 327 mistakes and put herself in a dangerous position. She is desperately trying to set it right so she doesn't appear to be running away from failure when she returns to Westeros. Basically she sucks and has no idea what she is doing. But hey, let's kill off the only guy capable of giving her sound advice so Grey Worm can scissor with Missandei!!!
Posted on 5/11/15 at 10:33 am to OMLandshark
quote:
I think that people think that it's required in order for Tyrion to ride a dragon
That's not it at all. I don't feel passionate about the theory one way or another. I don't love it or hate it. I will just not be surprised if that's where it winds up. I do think it could make Tyrion's conscious "cleaner" because he will learn he is not occursed as a kinslayer.
Posted on 5/11/15 at 10:34 am to FalseProphet
quote:
Myranda >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sansa.
Am I the only one here that thinks False is crazy/sight impaired?
Posted on 5/11/15 at 10:35 am to Mr. Wayne
I'm slightly crazy 
, but my sight works just fine.
, but my sight works just fine.
Posted on 5/11/15 at 10:37 am to Supravol22
quote:
Did the red witch leave with Stannis in the book? I can't remember
No, Melisandre stayed at the wall. She will be the one to revive Jon after he gets shanked.
Posted on 5/11/15 at 10:38 am to Mr. Wayne
quote:
Am I the only one here that thinks False is crazy/sight impaired?
Myranda has been nekkid, Sansa has not. Point goes to Myranda.
Posted on 5/11/15 at 10:42 am to Putty
quote:
Maybe his father hated him bc he suspected/knew that he was not his. Tywin even said that the only reason he abided him was because "I could not prove that you were not mine." and "you are no son of mine" It could be that Tywin, even if he had suspicion that Aery's raped Joanna acted as though Tyrion was his bc that was better than the shame of having been cuckolded by Aerys who was always shaming Tywin.
Is that really interesting though? It just makes Tywin's actions understandable and not monstrous, as the text highly implies. It's interesting to me that a man could be so cruel to really the son who is most similar to him and a true Lannister at heart. Tywin hates Tyrion not because he killed his mother coming out of the womb (although he's certainly bitter about it), but because he's a dwarf. If Joanna had died a few months later in an unrelated incident, I still think Tywin wouldn't treat Tyrion any different than he did in the story. If on the other hand Joanna still died giving birth to Tyrion, and Tyrion was not a dwarf, I think Tywin wouldn't have treated him so terribly and would have at least entertained the idea of being worth it due to Tyrion having his sensibilities.
Plus what does it do for Tyrion's character? He's not going to give a shite that he's Aerys son. The only thing he will care about is he is not Tywin's, would be thrilled, and never think of his father again, aside from maybe laughing about how Jaime would respond to the news. Tyrion and Aerys have no relationship, and it does nothing for either character. If Aerys is Jaime's father, at least that would do something for the character and really clarify some of the conflict between the two characters. Jaime and Aerys have one of the most famous relationships, and Jaime would be horrified of having Aerys as a father. Plus it supports Tywin's blindness to his children and adds a healthy bit of irony that his only child was the one he treated like garbage.
So is Tywin and Tyrion's characters both worth sacrificing all for Tyrion to ride a fricking dragon? Sorry, but characters and their relationships are more important than plot points. It's why LOST is still so beloved to this day; not for exactly the plot, which could be all over the place, but the fantastic characters that were in it. Tyrion not being Tywin's son is an incredible detriment to both characters.
This post was edited on 5/11/15 at 10:54 am
Posted on 5/11/15 at 10:45 am to Putty
quote:
I do think it could make Tyrion's conscious "cleaner" because he will learn he is not occursed as a kinslayer.
You're pointing this out as a good thing? You think it's an actual good thing for Tyrion to get off scot free legally, morally, and mentally by murdering his own father? This is why the theory is horrible. It wraps up everything in a pretty pink bow and sweeps the horror of Tyrion and Tywin's relationship under the rug. Tyrion needs to answer for murdering his own father, and I'd rather he directly face it rather than it simply being poofed away.
Posted on 5/11/15 at 10:46 am to OMLandshark
It is so hard to read the Hodor thread. I can't believe I used to be so dumb
Posted on 5/11/15 at 10:52 am to FalseProphet
I think it's funny how they are asking questions that were answered in spoonfeeding form last week.
Posted on 5/11/15 at 10:54 am to FalseProphet
quote:
It is so hard to read the Hodor thread. I can't believe I used to be so dumb
I was actually never that dumb, which is why I had to abandon them to their paranoia and ignorance. It's not hard to read, it is entertaining as hell.
Posted on 5/11/15 at 10:59 am to Putty
quote:
=/=
=
quote:
Maybe his father hated him bc he suspected/knew that he was not his. Tywin even said that the only reason he abided him was because "I could not prove that you were not mine." and "you are no son of mine" It could be that Tywin, even if he had suspicion that Aery's raped Joanna acted as though Tyrion was his bc that was better than the shame of having been cuckolded by Aerys who was always shaming Tywin.
Except that all of this is perfectly explained by a few facts. Tywin was deeply in love with his wife and it was said she was the only one capable of making him smile. Tyrion's birth resulted in her death. Tywin also has to seem powerful and superior. It is an absolute in his character and he eliminates anything that threatens that. Tyrion is a worst case scenario for Tywin as a child. A constant reminder that Tywin created something weak. Tywin is too proud to have stood by a wife that was taken by another. He also would have murdered Tyrion with the quickness if he even came close to thinking he was another man's son. No we he tolerated a bastard carrying his name, especially a dwarf.
quote:
The story about Tyrion's deformities at birth are remarkably like the description of Daenerys' stillborn Rhaego, complete with tail and scales.
Except in Tyrion's case, they were all untrue.
quote:
Targaryen's, including Danny, kill mothers during childbirth too. Giving birth to twins is more of a dangerous childbirth than a dwarf, and Jo made it through that o.k.
Childbirth kills mothers today with all of our technology. In those condition, it happened all the time. Defintely not just a Targaryen problem. The twins could have ripped her up on the way out making it a next kid out is going to kill you type thing.
There are way too many assumptions that have to be made in order for Tryion to be a Targ. This the best method to discredit any theory we talk about on here. If it takes a bunch of leaps, it is more than likely not true.
Posted on 5/11/15 at 11:06 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
I was actually never that dumb, which is why I had to abandon them to their paranoia and ignorance. It's not hard to read, it is entertaining as hell.
The slog through the last couple of books is pretty damn difficult (Boiled Leather does fix that).
Also, I read after the Red Wedding. It was hard as hell to read three books knowing everything that happened.
Posted on 5/11/15 at 11:09 am to FalseProphet
quote:
Boiled Leather does fix that
I'm working through it now. I'm actually picking up the pattern when the "book" shifts, but the timeline stays the same. That would have been maddening as hell for someone like me.
I understand why he wrote them that way, but I cannot recommend the Boiled Leather chapter order any more highly for either first readers of 4 & 5 or a re-read.
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