re: Dumbledore vs Gandalf the White

The movies don't really touch on the subject at all, but Gandalf was a weilder of one of the 'Three' rings of power that the elves created. The elves created their rings of power to sustain life and beauty not to forge items of power. As a holder of a Ring of Power, Gandalf was intimately aware at all times of Sauron and of the probing nature of Sauron's mind trying to gain control of all of Middle Earth, since Sauron's ring was created to control the Three.

Also, Sauron's ring, wasn't just a Ring of Power, it was Sauron. Sauron cast the majority of his power into this object that took the shape of a ring. The reason the hobbits weren't affected as heavily by the ring's power is because their bodies literally weren't capable of it. It would be like trying to pass electricity through plastic. The ring gave power to the individual holding it according to their stature. That's why Gollum didn't take over Middle Earth even though he had the ring in his possession for half an Age. Tolkein never really painted the picture of what would happen had Gandalf chosen to wear the ring but it was pretty clear that even Gandalf would not be able to resist its power.

Sauron was one of the original Maia (an actual Demi-God made by Eru, the One true God) that was originally sent to Middle Earth to prepare it for the coming of Eru's other planned children the Elves and Men. I'm not certain about this part but I think Gandalf (and the Wizards) were given to Men to help in the fight against Sauron, by the Vala. The Vala trump the Maia in terms of power and a few lived in Middle Earth as the source of its power (they were effectively the ruling class of Deity's above the Maia). Gandalf's magic was used to move Middle Earth, or more specifically, to move MEN to take back Middle Earth and rule it according to their ability.

The time of Men had come and it was now the end of Third Age and the beginning of the Fourth Age. As such, the time of the Elves has passed, and Gandalf and all of the Elves will leave Middle Earth and let men rule, this means that many things will change including how magic is seen and used throughout the world. Gandalf, if you will, was the bringer of the end of magic incarnate in Middle Earth. In other words, it was Gandalf's job to see to it that magic (Elves, Sauron, Wizards) all came to their ends and gave way for the Second Children of Eru, Men.

Voldemort and Dumbledore weren't even the most powerful Wizards that ever were, just the most powerful of their time. Apparition is certainly a power that gave me some pause in considering how Gandalf would handle this. I know that to Tolkein, the magic displayed in the Harry Potter universe would have been considered obscene. I don't think Dumbledore's magic would actually affect Gandalf at all.

Anyway....I digress.....

#uberpwnage

Gandalf

Gandalf

This is a fantastic thread. I've thought about this question several times and I've always thought Gandalf would easily best Dumbledore. After reading all of these learned (and some not so learned) opinions, I think my intitial impressions were correct, even though some did give me reason for pause. Put one more down for Gandalf.

You just can't see Dumblefore not shitting his pants if he was in this fight

So Dumbledore didn't have a grasp on what Voldy was doing? Dumbledore didn't anticipate his every move?

He didn't know that Voldy was indestructable because he had horcruxes?

The only point you made in this whole argument was the type of magic between LOTR and HP.

Do you know who else owns a ring of power? One that can control a whole area? One who is meant to clean up and prepare the world for man? A janitor.

Here's the deal, does Gandalf fight other wizards? One. He loses. Gandalf can go around picking off any type of evil in Middle Earth because he is powerful, but it is the type of power you would have if you went back in time to the Revolutionary War and brought a machine gun. Gandalf was like a UFC fighter in a nursery. He braking cribs cause he an entirely different being than errbody. Except for Sauroman, who he lost to.

Dumbledore, although not the most powerful proved time and time again that he was the best wizard of his time because he actually defended it. He moved through the ranks. He had to duel or defeat wizards to get to his spot. This is a measurable type of magic.

Gandalf has very few equals and his power is unmeasurable so it is hard to discern who is more powerful. We need a proxy for Gandalfs power that can be applied to the HP world.

I see what you are saying though: if Dumbledore was Michael Jordan, then Gandalf would be the game of basketball.

But Michael Jordan made basketball his bitch.

Dude, a janitor's ring, seriously?

I was mainly trying to give a sense to what the One Ring was, and that its not like a horcrux containing part of someone's soul. It actually was a sentient thing with a will of its own.

Secondly, on wizards. There was only (I think) 4 wizards in all of Middle Earth. Saruman was the White, the head of the Order. Gandalf was the Grey, and Radaghast was the Brown (I think there was a fourth but don't know his name or color). As a wizard you couldn't just go up a level, you were what you were and you were given certain amounts of power according to your level. Saruman was the White and Gandalf couldn't have beaten him no matter what. Saruman was the superior, and he had been persuaded over to Sauron. When Gandalf died fighting the Balrog he was then ordained The White and as such came back with the power to literally remove Saruman's powers. Its not like a streetfight where you can just get a lucky punch and win.

quote:

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But Michael Jordan made basketball his bitch.

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Yes, if there was a court to play on....


In reality I think its a case of classical vs new and 'new' is bright and shiny with pinstripes. (Rowling should pay Tolkein royalties....)

I will concede this. Someone on one of these boards asked what would be your favorite ficitional place to visit, and once Hogwart's was mentioned, I agreed that would be top of my list.

Tolkien rejected the new and was oldschool before oldschool was cool. I like the Harry Potter universe and think the last few books were quite good, but they pale in comparison to LOTR. Read the Silmarillion, seriously. You'll probably have to read it two or three times to get it. Its literally the history of the world.

But I'll take Gandalf on my side all day any day, whether we're fighting Orcs, Death Eaters, Ringwraiths, Dementors, other wizards, or anything else.....