re: Best explaination of TDKR

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It does MATTER what the director is TRYING to do. Because they succeed or don't succeed is important to HOW you judge the film.

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I agree. In large part because the aspirations of the director have a tendency to leak out into the media and blogosphere and change my own expectations of the movie before I see it. I'm guessing a lot of people never bothered to watch the link in the OP - but that critic makes the "expectations" point fairly IMO.

It's all a moot point

Man of Steel>>>>>>>TDKR>Avengers

Yes, though ill never understand why the avengers is compared to TDKR. I think as loved as the avengers is, it should be compared against what most people will tell you is the flag bearer for awesome comic book movies, TDK

In terms of quality TDKR and avengers are closer than TDK and the avengers but in terms of popularity among moviegoers the comparison should be TDK vs. the avengers

Just watch, when your friends come out of MoS the first thing they'll tell you is how it compares to TDK

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So, this thread is still going?

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it will go until it is anchored because the people who disagree RE: TDKR are not getting any closer together

muddying the waters with the Avengers reference instead of comparing TDKR to something like Superman II or Xmen just adds to the unlikeliness of a compromise

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Lots of things none of which are the ambitions of the director.

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Ambition and intent are different, but similar things. "Achieving greatness," is an ambition. Creating a "unique take on comic book films," or "Creating a neo-noir," is very much intent.

You don't think Nolan intentionally made Batman hyper-real and structured it more like a crime film on purpose? That was strictly his point, and his critique, throughout the trilogy.

That is extremely important, especially with respect to the quality of the third film.

I could see your point I the thread were an explanation of the avengers but it's a nitpick of TDKR and I can nitpick the avengers way more and those plot holes are major plot elements. Like the stupidity an implausibility of Loki wanting to be captured and it's the entire second act of the movie.

it's the only movie we can't agree on, but yeah generally speaking I don't care about potholes unless there are so many at every turn that the lapses in common sense break the movie or if they are huge elements of the plot or... The plot

The Avengers to me is just a good time at the theater. Sure it's nonsense, but it brought the feeling of a comic book better than any film since Spider-Man 2. I also appreciated how well they juggled the characters, and it wasn't simply "Iron Man and Friends". I think it did everything it set out to do, and I think TDKR did as well. I like TDKR more since it is a more visceral film, but I still enjoyed the Avengers.

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Even if Heath survived and they made the Joker a major villain in the final film, I still think Talia would have been in the final film. Makes it come full circle.

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The thing is, I really like Talia al Ghul as a character. She has a great story and would've made a great villain if they would've done it right.

Talia and Batman have this on and off type of relationship in the comics where she tries to seduce him, get him to join the League of Assassins, and at one point she even bears him a son, Damien Wayne. She is a master assassin and ruthless leader of the League.

Now, yea, that wouldn't have worked in this trilogy. There wasn't enough time to build up a relationship, but Nolan forced one in there anyway alongside the relationship with Catwoman. The love scene between Talia and Bruce was completely useless and didn't fit with the story at all.

As for bringing the story full circle, they did have it start with the League of Shadows and end with the League of Shadows. I'll give them that. The problem is that Nolan tried to get us to believe that Talia was the main villain at the end, sorta like they did with Ra's in BB, and he did it pretty damn poorly. It was as if the circle was getting thinner and thinner as it approached the climax and only a single fiber (Talia is the daughter of Ra's) connected the ends.

Talia is a non-factor throughout the entire movie. She is just kinda there. Well, there in the background. Where no one can see her. Although Bane may reference her role, the movie does not give off the feeling of there being someone more nefarious than Bane. Not once did I think, "There is someone else running this show." I will say though, I called that Miranda was Talia the minute they showed her on the screen. To make matters worse, the climactic reveal of Talia is just completely flat.

In summary, one of the problems with TDKR was it suffered from a milder form of "Spiderman 3 Syndrome." Meaning, they tried to do too much with too many characters, and Talia is a perfect example of how an important character can just come up as paper thin.