re: Where would you rank Larry Bird all time?

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I never stated LeBron was the greatest free throw shooter of all-time. Larry is elite from the foul line. I wont dispute that. But if free throws are your metric, then Curry is the true GOAT. He's much better from the line than Jordan after all.
Also, if you are using Skip Bayless to support your argument, your argument is trash.

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I'm gonna need more from LeBron if I'm gonna rank him over Larry

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LeBron hasn't been below average from 3 since his early Cleveland days

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The rankings do not support this

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But where exactly are you ranking LeBron? Just wondering

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All-time? Probably in the 4-7 range

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Were people even considering that stuff at the time? I don't think that stuff, outside of Russell/Wilt, really ratcheted up until Larry/Magic/Michael did what they did in the mid-late 80s when all 3 hit/were in their prime.

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Without the internet it certainly wasn't three lists a day like is now, but I can remember it from time to time in SI articles and there being an all-time 35th Anniversary team, as all the teams wore 35th Year patches that year. But yeah, the arrival of Bird and Magic really set it off. Its hard to imagine, but the NBA was only 35 years old when Bird/Magic broke in.

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WTF

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Again, tell me you didn’t actually watch Larry Bird without telling me you didn’t actually watch Larry Bird:

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1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%. Win a chip on the back of his teammates carrying him.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.


1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.


1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.

So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.

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He had 4 incredible playoff runs contrasted with a bunch of mediocre to downright bad playoff appearances. If you want to try and tell me with a straight face that we can’t put Lebron over Larry Bird cause of playoff melts, what you are really telling me is you dont actually know jack shite about Larry Bird and this exercise of placing Bird over Lebron is not based on facts or reality, but instead something else. Likely emotional hatred and/or identity politics.

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Elgin Baylor is ever mentioned.

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The problem with Elgin(and West for that matter) is the lack of success against their elite peers of the day, and the fact they needed Wilt Chamberlain and Gail Goodrich to ascend as the best offensive player in order to win their lone championship. Routinely losing to basically every other great of that era when it was West/Elgin.

Whether it was Kareem, Oscar, or Wilt Frazier/Willis Reed, John Havlicek/Russell, Rick Barry/Nick Thurmond. They just couldn’t get it done and would get bounced every year. They’d put up numbers, they were an incredibly talented duo on paper, yet they couldn’t win a ring as the best players.

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LeBron hasn't been below average from 3 since his early Cleveland days

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The rankings do not support this

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Well, let's test that out shall we.

On the left is league average per 3, on the right is Lebron's percentage
2022-.354:.359
2021-.367:.365
2020-.358:.348
2019-.355:.339
2018-.362:.367
2017-.358:.363
2016-.354:.309
2015-.350:.354
2014-.360:.379
2013-.359:.406
2012-.349:.362

So to recount, over the past 11 years, Lebron has been slightly above average from 3, 7 times out of 11. Again, my assertion is not that Lebron is an elite 3-point shooter. Instead, it was that outside of the early Cleveland years when he was just a super elite slasher whose entire game was predicated on dunking on anyone who dared to get in his way, he has consistently been average from 3. As in, that is not a weakness for him.

Bird was the biggest impact player in the history of the NBA. Biggest turn around of an NBA team in history, that has stood for 40+ years. Which includes all those 'superstars' that followed him.

Jordan, Magic, Lebron all required other stars in order to start snagging NBA titles. Bird got his in year 2. When Bird retired in '86, the Celtics didnt win another title for 22 years. After Kareem retired in '89, Magic never won another title. It took Jordan 7 years to win a title. Lebron took 9 years.

He is simply the best player in history as a teammate, as a dynasty builder, and as a player.

Bird always had multiple hall of fame teammates. Sometime as many as 4 others on his roster. Those squads were loaded.

With the exception of 85 (when he got in a bar fight and injured a finger on his shooting hand before the Finals), literally none of those stuck out as epic fails (I don't consider 85 an epic fail on the lines of LeBron 2011 because the injury impacted his play but to be fair that injury was self-inflicted) that get rehashed like LeBron’s meltdowns. Maybe 83 but that Celtics team took a step back from 82 and almost lost to the Hawks in the first round miniseries, not exactly the Celtics playing at the peak of their powers entering that postseason.

Best white dude but not top 50 overall. He’d be average in today’s game.