re: Where would you rank Larry Bird all time?

Lebron has no GOAT argument. He is solidly 2 or 3 at worst though

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The man averaged 24/10/6/2/1 for his career despite the fact he played the last 4 years with a bum arse back.

To say he is not a top 50 player is absurd.

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Top 50 absolutely, top 10 personally.

But we've gone over all these statistics the first few pages, there is just simply no way you can slice the numbers, efficiency stats, accolades, and length of time playing at a high level and place Bird above Lebron....unless you literally ignore all that, which is what several are attempting to do.

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I could see him easily being top 3 in scoring today and I don't see why his rebounding or assist numbers would drop off dramatically.

The man averaged 24/10/6/2/1 for his career despite the fact he played the last 4 years with a bum arse back.

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Offensively Bird would almost certainly be a nightmare. Kevin Durant with more physicality, better passing, and rebounding.

Bird in the modern NBA would likely be an almost exclusive power forward though. And with the more athletic shift and the lack of handchecking, inclusion of the 3 second rule, other post Jordan/Shaq rules, Bird's lack of lateral quickness, and the shift away from traditional power forwards for him to match up defensively on(Bird almost always guarded the slower forwards or PF while McHale and Johnson took the shiftier players), Bird would not be as effective of a defender unless he embraced, or could execute a small ball 5 type role.

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Being bad at defense

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Bird and Lebron largely ran their respective careers defending very similarly. Both great help defenders, Lebron that can erase shots, or in Larry's case, play passing lanes with great intuition(lebron is also good at playing lanes and getting steals), but neither regularly matched up with the opposing teams best players. Larry often hid on whoever was the slower forward, normally PF, while guys like McHale and Johnson took the tougher assignments. However, when need be, Lebron can basically guard 1-5 and take on the best opposing players, Larry was never capable of that.

And in terms of accolades, Lebron has made 5 all-defensive first teams to Larry's 0. 6 to 3 overall in Lebron's favor.

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mediocre in the long-range game in a long-range era, and bad at free throws

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You literally cherry picked the two statistical categories Bird was superior in.

In overall efficiency, Lebron > Bird in every major category: TS%, EFG%, OBPM, VORP, ORTG, OWS.

And honestly, if we want to get into playoff basketball, Lebron is actually a superior playoff 3 point shooter than Bird.

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You literally cherry picked the two statistical categories Bird was superior in.

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They’re pretty darn important statistical categories, especially threes in today’s game, for an all-time great as people say LeBron is, that’s the hill I’m gonna die on with Bird.

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And in terms of accolades, Lebron has made 5 all-defensive first teams to Larry's 0. 6 to 3 overall in Lebron's favor.

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Prime defense Bron (early Cavs/Heat) probably bests prime defense Larry but not by much, some of Bird’s most defining plays were defensive plays well after he stopped earning 2nd Team All-Defense honors (which he did during the early part of his career) Bird was incredibly versatile defensively then. Maybe LeBron could guard 1-5 in his younger days when he was more slender and Vince Carter-athletic, IDK that for a fact just the assumption that what you’re saying is true.

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In overall efficiency, Lebron > Bird in every major category: TS%, EFG%, OBPM, VORP, ORTG, OWS.

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Had Bird lived healthier (back and heel issues after he turned 31 due to shoveling accident at mom’s house and his aggressive play early on), the final stats would be very different but Bird at the peak of his powers was a statistical marvel and inspired fantasy basketball, he probably would have the same or more MVPs than Bron had Dr. J not gotten the votes in 81. And he played in a much different era of ball.

Also, and the LeBron stans deny this because their man is shaky in this regard, but Bird was the ultimate competitor, the testimonial evidence along with some legendary playoff performances back this up. Competitor, drive, trash-talking, silent death clutch shots, mopping the floor, warrior etc these buzzwords are always invoked by the greats of the game when they discuss him.

It’s not that I dislike LeBron as a player but for all the accolades and love that he gets in terms of his basketball reputation (a ton of it deserved) and the MJ-LeBron debate, there’s enough to nitpick that I can’t place him above Bird and Duncan in the greatest players of all-time discussion. He’s slightly above Magic because they’re basically the same player but LeBron’s scoring dominance is enough to trump Magic’s legendary competitiveness which puts Bron’s to shame. I tie him with Kareem which shouldn’t be a slight but y’all take such umbrage with that he isn’t no. 2 for some odd reason, not everything is about stats in a vacuum.

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I didn't say they aren't important, but do you also rank Bird over Jordan because of the same?

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No because Jordan’s probably the most perfect basketball player we’ve seen and will see

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And like Lebron, Jordan was a better playoff 3p shooter so really Bird has FT%, thats basically it. Lebron gets to the line more and gets more FTM's per game. So Lebron makes up for the gap in efficiency by getting to the line more often and getting more overall FT points.

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Completely ignoring the forest through the trees here, a lot of Bird’s reputation relates to his ability to shoot threes which he started doing around 85-86 in a league that didn’t go out of its way to emphasize it with the top players. I mean the guy won the first 3 3 Pt Shootouts in NBA history, you can throw playoff stats out all you want that’s not gonna trump Bird’s bread and butter.

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Bird was never a super versatile defender.

He earned respect as an off ball help defender and a willingness to pound with big PF's of the era in the post. He was never a good 1 on 1 defender and his lack of lateral quickness limits the type of players he could defend. Would be even worse today.

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His all-defense teams in the early 80s disagree, we’ll have to agree to disagree, I’ll grant you that Bird was deceptively quick then. Even so, I gave LeBron the edge be it slightly in that regard. Again, a bunch of Bird’s defining plays were clutch defensive performances when it mattered most.

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I mean you don't determine someone's legacy based on "what could have been"

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You’re the one relying on stats in a watered down era to determine someone’s legacy, Bird’s stats on its face are good enough especially from his generation, his stats from 84-88 are Mount Rushmore level which stand up slightly a notch below Jordan’s best work, his stats before then were great for the era too especially considering who surrounded him on the Celtics so he didn’t have to carry much of the scoring load all the time. As stellar as a 24/10/6 and basically 50/40/90 career statline is after factoring in 4 broken back seasons to close everything out, it would’ve been soooo much better and that’s how great he was.

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Cant stand Lebron but he has had the better career and is the better player all time....And he probably has a few more seasons in him to further cement it.

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Kareem Abdul-Jabbar probably had a better career than anybody in NBA history, I acknowledge great careers, I acknowledge the performances, and I also acknowledge stats and testimonial evidence against the player’s reputation, I’m not putting LeBron over Bird all-time at this point. I think the case statistically is compelling but I weigh all factors including testimonial evidence. To establish my credibility here: I argued until I was blue in the face 2017-18 that LeBron was better than Jordan and that what he did in 2016 was GOAT-level stuff. I loved basketball LeBron a ton back then then I started learning more about basketball, basketball history, and trends in the game, assessing all factors including testimonial evidence. That’s when the needle shifted in my analysis of things.

I wish I could find the post where I said that the closer we got to the end of LeBron's career, the lower he would be rated, and the further we get from the end of his career, the more likely he falls out of the top 5.
The ridicule was resounding. In truth he has never had no business being compared to Jordan, and now even Bird is the better player. Lulz.

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Top 5.

MJ, Magic, Hakeem (Rocket Homer), Curry.

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That's only four.

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now even Bird is the better player.

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You sure about that. Larry is in his 60s now. Pretty sure he is not prepared to be able to play an NBA game right now. So by that value, he cannot be better than LeBron now.

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Where would you rank Larry

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Best teammate ever.

1. Jordan
2. Lebron
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Bill Russell
8. Dr. J
9. Bird
10. Duncan