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Posted on 4/24/11 at 10:54 am to COTiger
Ryne had more ,runs,hr's,sb,than Puckett Just sayin. both careers were pretty even.
Posted on 4/24/11 at 11:00 am to COTiger
quote:
Six stolen bases was his career high.
Irrelevant. The "tool" in question is not "base stealing ability". He was by all accounts an excellent base runner and had tremendous field speed defensively.
quote:
And based on what I've seen and read about him, he was an average fielder.
No one refers to DiMaggio as an "average fielder". Crazy.
Posted on 4/24/11 at 11:16 am to COTiger
quote:
he was an average fielder.
That's completely false. DiMaggio was a brilliant defensive defensive center fielder, one of the best to ever play the game. That's why most people at that time rated him higher than Ted Williams. In fact in Bill James' Historical Baseball Abstract, he writes that Joe Dimaggio played in 115+ games 11 times in his career and was a Gold Glove caliber OF in eight of those years. He ranks as the fourth best defensive outfielder in two of the other three. As for true five tool players, here's my 10 in no particular order:
Honus Wagner
Alex Rodriguez
Willie Mays
Hank Aaron
Andre Dawson
Mickey Mantle
Ken Griffey Jr.
Larry Walker
Tris Speaker
Carlos Beltran
Players who fall short:
Barry Bonds- did not have a strong throwing arm
Ty Cobb- had a poor throwing arm
Rickey Henderson- did not have a strong throwing arm
Al Kaline- Never stole 10 bases in a season
Roberto Clemente- stole more than 10 bases only once in his career
Joe Dimaggio- Did not steal enough bases.
Posted on 4/24/11 at 11:29 am to brgfather129
I only saw Joe D in film clips. I saw Mantle & Mays in person and a hell of a lot on TV. If you think Joe D's a better fielder, fine. I don't.
And I know stolen bases isn't one of the 5 tools, but 6 stolen bases suggests a lack of speed to me. Obviously you disagree.
And I know stolen bases isn't one of the 5 tools, but 6 stolen bases suggests a lack of speed to me. Obviously you disagree.
Posted on 4/24/11 at 11:36 am to COTiger
quote:
I saw Mantle & Mays in person and a hell of a lot on TV. If you think Joe D's a better fielder, fine. I don't.
Everybody acknowledges that Joe D was a better fielder than Mantle. Even Bill James who is a notorious Mickey Mantle fanboy has said that there is no question Dimaggio was a better defensive CF than Mantle. And falling short of Mays as a defensive CF is a hell of a standard you have.
Posted on 4/24/11 at 11:41 am to COTiger
quote:
I only saw Joe D in film clips. I saw Mantle & Mays in person and a hell of a lot on TV. If you think Joe D's a better fielder, fine. I don't.
That wasn't what you said. You said he was an "average fielder". Not being better than Mays and Mantle does not imply he was average.
quote:
but 6 stolen bases suggests a lack of speed to me.
Judging speed by stolen bases is a lazy metric. The dimensions from alley-to-alley @ Yankee Stadium when DiMaggio played: 457-461-407. You cannot man CF with those dimensions and do it at an elite level without tremendous speed. It would not happen.
Posted on 4/24/11 at 12:01 pm to Bench McElroy
Yeah, Joe D was no joke in CF.
Question: Obviously everyone acknowledges the bigger parks that Mays, Ruth etc. played in and how gross their numbers would be had they played in today's parks. Has anyone done studies regarding batting average boosts in that same era due to having expansive OFs... ie more places to hit the ball?
Question: Obviously everyone acknowledges the bigger parks that Mays, Ruth etc. played in and how gross their numbers would be had they played in today's parks. Has anyone done studies regarding batting average boosts in that same era due to having expansive OFs... ie more places to hit the ball?
This post was edited on 4/24/11 at 12:01 pm
Posted on 4/24/11 at 12:13 pm to dukke v
Manny ramirez? Are you serious? He was a shitty fielder. And he wasn't slow or anything, but I'm not sure he's fast enough to qualify for this.
Posted on 4/24/11 at 12:16 pm to OBUDan
Some guy wrote a book (can't remember his name, cause I loaned the book out) saying Babe Ruth would have hit 102 home runsif one of his great seasons had been played in today's parks, with today's rules. The bigger parks made a huge difference. Yankee stadium was originally 500 feet in dead center. Griffith Stadium was so big some played their entire careers there withoug hitting a ball into the seats.
Posted on 4/24/11 at 12:16 pm to F machine
quote:
Manny ramirez? Are you serious? He was a shitty fielder
I agree with this. but his hitting makes up for that. BUT like someone said before, Bonds couldn't even throw out the slowest player to ever play the game. So I guess we take him off the list as well.
Posted on 4/24/11 at 12:18 pm to dukke v
I agree Ramirez is a great hitter, but we aren't just talking about hitting. And you can't use one play to summarize bonds' whole career as a fielder or his arm strength.
Posted on 4/24/11 at 12:20 pm to F machine
quote:
And you can't use one play to summarize bonds' whole career as a fielder or his arm strength.
He was an average fielder at best. Is Bonds a better overall player than Manny??? SURE. But your obvious HATE for Manny is very evident.
Posted on 4/24/11 at 12:27 pm to dukke v
I don't hate manny at all. I find him entertaining. I just dont think he belongs in this conversation because of fielding.
And older bonds post roids is an average fielder. Pre roids bonds is not average.
And older bonds post roids is an average fielder. Pre roids bonds is not average.
Posted on 4/24/11 at 12:31 pm to F machine
quote:
Pre roids bonds is not average.
Thats when he couldn't throw BREEM out!!!!!
Posted on 4/24/11 at 12:34 pm to dukke v
Well fielding and throwing are different things...
Posted on 4/24/11 at 12:41 pm to F machine
quote:
Pre roids
So you are saying he did roids??? IF so then he is OFF ALL LISTS!!!!
Posted on 4/24/11 at 1:15 pm to dukke v
Of course he did roids. Everyone knows that.
I'm not even talking about when he did roids. Even if you discount his career post roids he's still one of the greatest ever.
Like I said, you can't take one play to summarize his whole career. Every player has instances of mediocrity.
I'm not even talking about when he did roids. Even if you discount his career post roids he's still one of the greatest ever.
Like I said, you can't take one play to summarize his whole career. Every player has instances of mediocrity.
Posted on 4/24/11 at 1:30 pm to COTiger
quote:
Rhyno was a hell of a 2nd baseman, but he doesn't belong in this discussion.
the best 5 tool 2nd baseman ever doesnt belong?
why not?
Posted on 4/24/11 at 1:44 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
Baseball's talent evaluators grade players on the basis of five skills--running speed, arm strength, defensive ability, hitting for average and hitting for power. Griffey scores the highest possible mark in all five categories. Bonds rates at the exceptional level in four of those skills. Arm strength is his only tool with an average grade.In his younger playing days, he compensated for his arm by playing shallow and counting on his speed to catch up to most balls hit to deep left.
quote:
"I've never had a great arm," Bonds says. "But it's good enough to where if you run, I'll get your arse. I ain't no pushover out there. I'll get you. If it's an in-between play, you have a better shot than I do. But if it's a play that I can get to quickly enough. . . .
LINK
Sid Bream's dash home was on a short base hit to left.
Barry Bond's throw
This post was edited on 4/24/11 at 1:46 pm
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