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re: Tiger may not have been 2 yards back like he said

Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:27 am to
Posted by unbeWEAVEable
The Golf Board Godfather
Member since Apr 2010
13637 posts
Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:27 am to
His intent wasn't to drop illegally, his intent was to gain a competitive advantage.

What I meant was that he wasn't penalized for the drop, he was penalized for stating that he dropped further back because... of whatever reason.
Posted by texastiger38
Member since Sep 2007
27624 posts
Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:28 am to
quote:

slackhouse


Just give it up already, good lord.

There have been many ex-professional players as well as current professional players that have said the ruling was correct, and there were some that thought it was incorrect. Obviously there is a grey area.

You are not the all knowing golf rules expert.
Posted by hashtag
Comfy, AF
Member since Aug 2005
32799 posts
Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:28 am to
quote:

Because they did that, he was protected under the new rule.
go read the link i provided on the other thread. nothing you are saying matters. the ruling was to protect the player when it is determined that he had no reasonable way of knowing the facts that broke a rule. If Tiger had no reasonable way of knowing he did not drop as close to his original shot as possible, why did he say he dropped further back. Seriously, go read the link. You think they created this rule to give them some gray area to protect the player when the Committee screws up.

That rule has 0 to do with that. It in no way allows for that.
Posted by bamafan425
Jackson's Hole
Member since Jan 2009
25713 posts
Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:28 am to
Isn't intending to gain a competitive advantage considered an illegal drop? So wouldn't they be equivalent?
Posted by lsugolf1105
BR
Member since Aug 2008
3443 posts
Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:28 am to
quote:

Then what's the problem? If his INTENT was to drop legally, why was he penalized?


because his intent was not correct. he thought he was within the rules to drop where he did. that is why he talked about it. he thought he did nothing wrong. when in actuality he took an incorrect drop.
Posted by threeputt
God's Country
Member since Sep 2008
24796 posts
Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:29 am to
quote:

CocomoLSU


You are not understanding the rule. Yes it protects the player if he could not have reasonably known that he broke the rule without replay and did not take a penalty then signed an incorrect card.

Tiger meant to use the rule to his advantage by dropping farther back, but he did not take into account the angle in which the ball bounced off the flag. tiger could have reasonably known what angle the ball went in the water without the aide of replay. THE ONLY WAY THAT THE RULE WOULD BE CORRECTLY USED IN THIS CASE IS IF TIGER'S VIEW (& PLAYING PARTNERS) WAS OBSTRUCTED AND HE PLAYED FROM THE INCORRECT SPOT.

Because its rare for a ball to clear a hazard the back up back into the hazard at a differnt angle, tiger just wasnt thinking and proceded as usual.
Posted by hashtag
Comfy, AF
Member since Aug 2005
32799 posts
Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:29 am to
quote:

Just give it up already, good lord.

There have been many ex-professional players as well as current professional players that have said the ruling was correct, and there were some that thought it was incorrect. Obviously there is a grey area.

You are not the all knowing golf rules expert
i never said i was. but, if you read the USGA explanation of this rule revision, you will see that I am 100% correct.
Posted by hashtag
Comfy, AF
Member since Aug 2005
32799 posts
Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:30 am to
quote:

Yes it protects the player if he could not have reasonably known that he broke the rule without replay and did not take a penalty then signed an incorrect card.
it's not even about whether he could have reasonably known if he broke a rule. only that he reasonably knew of the facts that broke the rule. whether he knew that his actions broke the rule is inconsequential.
Posted by CocomoLSU
Inside your dome.
Member since Feb 2004
155580 posts
Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:31 am to
quote:

because his drop was deemed to not be as close to the original shot as possible. It isn't about intent. The two resident failed Pro golfers are 100% wrong and just plain stupid.

What?

It was about intent. That's why the committee went back and reviewed it again after his interview. He tried to gain an advantage (within the rules), and they assessed a penalty because of that. Which nearly everybody, Tiger included, agreed with.

IMO I think it's kinda stupid that he got penalized at all, mainly because it was already reviewed by them and they OK'd it. Regardless of ANY rules, they said it was fine and later recanted. That's dumb, but I understand everything the way it happened.
Posted by bamafan425
Jackson's Hole
Member since Jan 2009
25713 posts
Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:32 am to
So he was trying to gain a competitive advantage within the rules, but was incorrect in the assumption?

Wouldnt gaining a competitive advantage be a violation of any rule?
Posted by lsugolf1105
BR
Member since Aug 2008
3443 posts
Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:33 am to
i heard this on the radio this morning from a USGA rules official - Lee Janzen went to replace his ball after a rain delay in the US Open a few years ago. before he did, he wiped the dew off the ground where he was going to place his ball. USGA official saw him do this but did not call a penalty because the rules official did not know the rule. It was discovered after the round what happened and that Lee should have been penalized. usga did not penalize him because the official missed it.
Posted by Newbomb Turk
perfectanschlagen
Member since May 2008
9961 posts
Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:33 am to
quote:

His intent wasn't to drop illegally, his intent was to gain a competitive advantage.


But, NOT fraudulently. He honestly thought he could do that.

And, I lost A LOT of respect for Nick Faldo and Brendel Chamblee. They were all over the TV saying that "everyone knows that rule" YET, we have all of these former pro golfer on the air who watched it 20-something times -- AND NOT A ONE PICKED IT UP.

I've played golf for 30 years. And, to the average golfer, the "general" rule is that you can pick the point where you went over the water and back up as far as you like. Sometimes, overly complicated rules take away from the enjoyment and fun of the game. AND, I suspect that a big reason why they put the rule on the Committee given leeway to impose a penalty (instead of automatic disqualification) was because of situations just like this.

I'm not a big Tiger fan. But, he clearly wasn't trying to do anything illegal. He, like 99.9% of the golfers out there -- including EVERY announcer on the broadcast -- thought as long as he went no closer to the pin, he was playing within the rules. And, I think the Committee did the right thing.
This post was edited on 4/15/13 at 9:37 am
Posted by unbeWEAVEable
The Golf Board Godfather
Member since Apr 2010
13637 posts
Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:33 am to
quote:

that is what i do too. but technically you are gaining an advantage by not having to hit out of a divot which you had to on the original shot.


Negative.
Posted by hashtag
Comfy, AF
Member since Aug 2005
32799 posts
Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:34 am to
quote:

Which nearly everybody, Tiger included, agreed with.
because based on video evidence, they determined that he had dropped farther back away from his ball. it wasn't about intent. it was about evidence. They had video evidence and Tiger's own testimony that he did not drop his ball close to his original shot. If Tiger said he dropped the ball 50 yards back to gain an advantage but did not, his words would mean nothing. His intent isn't what got him in trouble. His words/intent is what lead to them looking at video evidence again and determining that he had broken a rule.
Posted by bamafan425
Jackson's Hole
Member since Jan 2009
25713 posts
Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:34 am to
So even if you landed in a divot and had to hit out of it on shot one, you wouldn't have to "try" to land in the divot for your drop?
This post was edited on 4/15/13 at 9:35 am
Posted by unbeWEAVEable
The Golf Board Godfather
Member since Apr 2010
13637 posts
Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:35 am to
quote:

Isn't intending to gain a competitive advantage considered an illegal drop? So wouldn't they be equivalent?


Not necessarily.
Posted by threeputt
God's Country
Member since Sep 2008
24796 posts
Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:36 am to
I did learn of that while researching our question last night



ETA: I would have no issue if the comittee did not penalize tiger.
This post was edited on 4/15/13 at 9:40 am
Posted by bamafan425
Jackson's Hole
Member since Jan 2009
25713 posts
Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:36 am to
I feel like intending to gain a competitive advantage is a violation of the spirit of the rule in any instance. That goes against the integrity that is expected in this game.
Posted by hashtag
Comfy, AF
Member since Aug 2005
32799 posts
Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:37 am to
I'm gonna post the entirety of the USGA explanation of the rule used to allow Tiger to stay in the tourney. Read this and tell me if they applied it correctly:
quote:

The R&A and the USGA have announced a new interpretation of the rules that apply in limited circumstances not previously contemplated by the Rules of Golf where disqualifications have been caused by score card errors identified as the result of recent advances in video technologies.
This revision to Decision 33-7/4.5 addresses the situation where a player is not aware he has breached a Rule because of facts that he did not know and could not reasonably have discovered prior to returning his score card. Under this revised decision and at the discretion of the Committee, the player still receives the penalty associated with the breach of the underlying Rule, but is not disqualified.
In revising the decision, The R&A and the USGA confirm that the disqualification penalty still applies for score card breaches that arise from ignorance of the Rules of Golf. As such, this decision reinforces that it is still the responsibility of the player to know the Rules, while recognizing that there may be some rare situations where it is reasonable that a player is unaware of the factual circumstances of a breach.
This revision to Decision 33-7/4.5 is effective immediately.
“For some time we have been concerned that, in certain limited circumstances, disproportionate disqualification penalties have been required by the Rules,” said Peter Dawson, chief executive of The R&A. “This carefully considered decision reflects our desire to ensure that the Rules of Golf remain fair and relevant in the changing environment in which the game is played today.”
“This is a logical and important step in our re-evaluation of the impact of high-definition video on the game,” said Mike Davis, executive director of the USGA. “We collectively believe that this revised decision addresses many video-related issues never contemplated by the Rules of Golf.”
The complete language of the revised decision follows.

33-7/4.5 Competitor Unaware of Penalty Returns Wrong Score; Whether Waiving or Modifying Disqualification Penalty Justified
Q. A competitor returns his score card. It later transpires that the score for one hole is lower than actually taken due to his failure to include a penalty stroke(s) which he did not know he had incurred. The error is discovered before the competition has closed.
Would the Committee be justified, under Rule 33-7, in waiving or modifying the penalty of disqualification prescribed in Rule 6-6d?
A. Generally, the disqualification prescribed by Rule 6-6d must not be waived or modified.
However, if the Committee is satisfied that the competitor could not reasonably have known or discovered the facts resulting in his breach of the Rules, it would be justified under Rule 33-7 in waiving the disqualification penalty prescribed by Rule 6-6d. The penalty stroke(s) associated with the breach would, however, be applied to the hole where the breach occurred.
For example, in the following scenarios, the Committee would be justified in waiving the disqualification penalty:
A player makes a short chip from the greenside rough. At the time, he and his fellow-competitors have no reason to suspect that the player has double-hit his ball in breach of Rule 14-4. After the competitor has signed and returned his score card, a close-up, super-slow-motion video replay reveals that the competitor struck his ball twice during the course of the stroke. In these circumstances, it would be appropriate for the Committee to waive the disqualification penalty and apply the one-stroke penalty under Rule 14-4 to the player’s score at the hole in question.

After a competitor has signed and returned his score card, it becomes known, through the use of a high-definition video replay, that the player unknowingly touched a few grains of sand with his club at the top of his backswing on a wall of the bunker. The touching of the sand was so light that, at the time, it was reasonable for the player to have been unaware that he had breached Rule 13-4. It would be appropriate for the Committee to waive the disqualification penalty and apply the two-stroke penalty to the player’s score at the hole in question.

A competitor moves his ball on the putting green with his finger in the act of removing his ball-marker. The competitor sees the ball move slightly forward but is certain that it has returned to the original spot, and he plays the ball as it lies. After the competitor signs and returns his score card, video footage is brought to the attention of the Committee that reveals that the ball did not precisely return to its original spot. When questioned by the Committee, the competitor cites the fact that the position of the logo on the ball appeared to be in exactly the same position as it was when he replaced the ball and this was the reason for him believing that the ball returned to the original spot. As it was reasonable in these circumstances for the player to have no doubt that the ball had returned to the original spot, and because the player could not himself have reasonably discovered otherwise prior to signing and returning his score card, it would be appropriate for the Committee to waive the disqualification penalty. The two-stroke penalty under Rule 20-3a for playing from a wrong place would, however, be applied to the player’s score at the hole in question.

A Committee would not be justified under Rule 33-7 in waiving or modifying the disqualification penalty prescribed in Rule 6-6d if the player’s failure to include the penalty stroke(s) was a result of either ignorance of the Rules or of facts that the player could have reasonably discovered prior to signing and returning his score card.
For example, in the following scenarios, the Committee would not be justified in waiving or modifying the disqualification penalty:
As a player’s ball is in motion, he moves several loose impediments in the area in which the ball will likely come to rest. Unaware that this action is a breach of Rule 23-1, the player fails to include the two-stroke penalty in his score for the hole. As the player was aware of the facts that resulted in his breaching the Rules, he should be disqualified under Rule 6-6d for failing to include the two-stroke penalty under Rule 23-1.

A player's ball lies in a water hazard. In making his backswing for the stroke, the player is aware that his club touched a branch in the hazard. Not realizing at the time that the branch was detached, the player did not include the two-stroke penalty for a breach of Rule 13-4 in his score for the hole. As the player could have reasonably determined the status of the branch prior to signing and returning his score card, the player should be disqualified under Rule 6-6d for failing to include the two-stroke penalty under Rule 13-4. (Revised)
Posted by unbeWEAVEable
The Golf Board Godfather
Member since Apr 2010
13637 posts
Posted on 4/15/13 at 9:37 am to
Yes, although that's not the best way of stating it.
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