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re: Steve Carlton is the most underrated pitcher in Baseball History, even though he's in HOF.
Posted on 7/25/23 at 11:59 pm to VADawg
Posted on 7/25/23 at 11:59 pm to VADawg
Carlton"s 1972 National League Cy Young campaign is insane.
He completed 30 starts in his debut season with the Phillies. He also won 27 games (one of only 22 pitchers to win at least that many games in the Live Ball Era) and posted a 1.97 ERA in 346 1/3 innings.
He won 4 Cy Youngs...the others who won at least 4...Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux...and he won two of those at age 35 and 37 respectively.
Only three pitchers in MLB history struck out more batters in their careers than Carlton...Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson and Roger Clemens.
Carlton won 329 games during his 24-year career. Only three pitchers in the Live Ball Era won more -- Warren Spahn, Greg Maddux and Roger Clemens.
Carlton faced 21,683 batters over his Hall of Fame career. The only pitchers in the Modern Era (since 1900) to face more are Walter Johnson (23,405), Phil Niekro (22,677), Nolan Ryan (22,575) and Gaylord Perry (21,953).
He completed 30 starts in his debut season with the Phillies. He also won 27 games (one of only 22 pitchers to win at least that many games in the Live Ball Era) and posted a 1.97 ERA in 346 1/3 innings.
He won 4 Cy Youngs...the others who won at least 4...Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux...and he won two of those at age 35 and 37 respectively.
Only three pitchers in MLB history struck out more batters in their careers than Carlton...Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson and Roger Clemens.
Carlton won 329 games during his 24-year career. Only three pitchers in the Live Ball Era won more -- Warren Spahn, Greg Maddux and Roger Clemens.
Carlton faced 21,683 batters over his Hall of Fame career. The only pitchers in the Modern Era (since 1900) to face more are Walter Johnson (23,405), Phil Niekro (22,677), Nolan Ryan (22,575) and Gaylord Perry (21,953).
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Posted on 7/26/23 at 6:52 am to msudawg1200
quote:This guy knows. When the zombie apocalypse begins he's going to be ready
I don't like it where there are too many people," he says
Built under the house is a 7,000-foot storage cellar. He's stocked it with canned foods, bottled water, weapons. "Do you know if you store guns in PVC pipe, they can last forever underground without rusting?" he says.
This post was edited on 7/26/23 at 6:54 am
Posted on 7/26/23 at 7:06 am to LeeVanCleef
1. First off it's an absolute myth (just like Nolan Ryan pitching for sorry teams) that Carlton "played most of his career on terrible teams." The guy pitched 22 years and pitched for six teams with losing records and one with a .500 record. The man pitched in two World Series with St. Louis, two World Series with Philadelphia, was a member of another Series-winning team in Minnesota but didn't make the postseason roster and went to the postseason four other times with Philadelphia.
2. Flame away but I have him No. 16 on my own ATG list. I dont think he's seriously in contention for GOAT, but I don't think calling someone the 16th best pitcher in the 150-plus-year history of MLB is exactly an insult. I do think the only better lefties were Grove, R. Johnson and Spahn.
3. He was traded from the Cardinals over $10k. He'd gotten a good (for the era) two-year contract after a strong 1969, then was awful in 1970 but bounced back in 1971, but made a permanent mortal enemy in Gussie Busch the team owner who thought players were sharecroppers on his plantation.
Carlton wanted a nice raise, Busch said no more than $10k, and Carlton held out and Busch demanded he be traded as a warning to other players not to get uppity. Carlton didn't want to be traded and backed off and said he'd take the $10k, but Busch wouldn't back down. The GM dragged his feet hoping Busch would get over it, but he didn't and basically told the GM trade him for whatever you can get for him or you're fired.
Ironically, Rick Wise who he was traded for was in the same boat with the Phillies. He actually had a better year than Carlton in 1971 and wanted a $15k raise and the Phillies said no, and Wise pissed them off by going to the press and saying the Phillies could pay Dionne Warwick $15k for a post-game concert but couldn't pay their best pitcher that.
4. RE>Carlton's slider. The Cardinals didn't want him throwing it. I kid you not. When he got to the Phillies, their pitching coach, Ray Ripplemeyer, was watching him and asked him, "Don't you have another pitch?" Carlton said, "The slider but they didn't want me throwing it in St. Louis." Rippemeyer told him, "You're gonna throw that pitch and win with it." THAT is what happened in 1972 and why he turned from a front-line starter into Lefty, the ATG.
5. It's also a myth that "he wouldn't talk to the press." In his book of a couple of years ago about the top 100 baseball players, Joe Posnaski had like a couple of pages of cited examples of Carlton being quoted during his supposedly "silent years." He just wouldn't talk to the Philly writers after games, which I can't blame him for because they were turds, the most notorious of the turds turning out to be a longtime child molester. Before he was in Philly, and after he was in Philly, you couldn't shut him up.
6. The reason he hung on so long at the end is that a financial adviser he trusted lost his money and he was flat broke. It wasn't that he couldn't give it up, he had to put bread on the table.
2. Flame away but I have him No. 16 on my own ATG list. I dont think he's seriously in contention for GOAT, but I don't think calling someone the 16th best pitcher in the 150-plus-year history of MLB is exactly an insult. I do think the only better lefties were Grove, R. Johnson and Spahn.
3. He was traded from the Cardinals over $10k. He'd gotten a good (for the era) two-year contract after a strong 1969, then was awful in 1970 but bounced back in 1971, but made a permanent mortal enemy in Gussie Busch the team owner who thought players were sharecroppers on his plantation.
Carlton wanted a nice raise, Busch said no more than $10k, and Carlton held out and Busch demanded he be traded as a warning to other players not to get uppity. Carlton didn't want to be traded and backed off and said he'd take the $10k, but Busch wouldn't back down. The GM dragged his feet hoping Busch would get over it, but he didn't and basically told the GM trade him for whatever you can get for him or you're fired.
Ironically, Rick Wise who he was traded for was in the same boat with the Phillies. He actually had a better year than Carlton in 1971 and wanted a $15k raise and the Phillies said no, and Wise pissed them off by going to the press and saying the Phillies could pay Dionne Warwick $15k for a post-game concert but couldn't pay their best pitcher that.
4. RE>Carlton's slider. The Cardinals didn't want him throwing it. I kid you not. When he got to the Phillies, their pitching coach, Ray Ripplemeyer, was watching him and asked him, "Don't you have another pitch?" Carlton said, "The slider but they didn't want me throwing it in St. Louis." Rippemeyer told him, "You're gonna throw that pitch and win with it." THAT is what happened in 1972 and why he turned from a front-line starter into Lefty, the ATG.
5. It's also a myth that "he wouldn't talk to the press." In his book of a couple of years ago about the top 100 baseball players, Joe Posnaski had like a couple of pages of cited examples of Carlton being quoted during his supposedly "silent years." He just wouldn't talk to the Philly writers after games, which I can't blame him for because they were turds, the most notorious of the turds turning out to be a longtime child molester. Before he was in Philly, and after he was in Philly, you couldn't shut him up.
6. The reason he hung on so long at the end is that a financial adviser he trusted lost his money and he was flat broke. It wasn't that he couldn't give it up, he had to put bread on the table.
This post was edited on 7/26/23 at 7:10 am
Posted on 7/26/23 at 7:33 am to InkStainedWretch
And following up on my epistle, IMO Carlton is only underrated if you're going to try to make the argument that he was the GOAT, and I don't think he's close.
On my own ATG list, for what it's worth, I have W. Johnson, Grove, Clemens (I despise the man but I have to be honest), C. Young, Seaver, Maddux, R. Johnson, G.C. Alexander, Mathewson, Paige (I put him 10th as a compromise because none of us will ever know for sure how great he was in his prime), Spahn, P. Martinez, Feller, Gibson and P. Niekro (talk about somebody who pitched for terrible teams) ahead of him and G. Perry, Plank, Blyleven and Roberts behind him.
Don't think there's any trash among the names I just mentioned ...
On my own ATG list, for what it's worth, I have W. Johnson, Grove, Clemens (I despise the man but I have to be honest), C. Young, Seaver, Maddux, R. Johnson, G.C. Alexander, Mathewson, Paige (I put him 10th as a compromise because none of us will ever know for sure how great he was in his prime), Spahn, P. Martinez, Feller, Gibson and P. Niekro (talk about somebody who pitched for terrible teams) ahead of him and G. Perry, Plank, Blyleven and Roberts behind him.
Don't think there's any trash among the names I just mentioned ...
This post was edited on 7/26/23 at 7:34 am
Posted on 7/26/23 at 8:09 am to LeeVanCleef
quote:
So when Carlton pitched the Phillies were 27-10.
That's not quite right, but your point is still valid. In 72, Carlton started 41 games so we have 4 games unaccounted for because he didn't receive a decision. Good post though.
This post was edited on 7/26/23 at 8:11 am
Posted on 7/26/23 at 8:10 am to InkStainedWretch
Good info inkstained. No Koufax on your list?
Posted on 7/26/23 at 8:12 am to LeeVanCleef
Growing up in south Jersey in the 70's and 80's I have fond meomories of my dad taking us to Phillies game when he'd come home from work...but it was ONLY when lefty would pitch. We'd sit in the uppers of Veterans stadium, where it was 50 cents for kids to get in and watch him strike out 15 before the 8th inning.
Lefty always won..
Lefty always won..
Posted on 7/26/23 at 8:23 am to EvrybodysAllAmerican
Sandy is my favorite pitcher who ever lived and I have both his home and road Mitchell and Ness jerseys and if I had to choose one pitcher in history to pitch a game for me with my life at stake it would be ‘63 Koufax.
But he was a meteor, his peak was so short it’s hard to rank him historically over folks who did it longer. My heart would put him near the top but my head puts him about 25th.
But he was a meteor, his peak was so short it’s hard to rank him historically over folks who did it longer. My heart would put him near the top but my head puts him about 25th.
Posted on 7/26/23 at 8:24 am to LeeVanCleef
quote:
In 1972 he was 27-10 on a team with a 59-97 record.
So when Carlton pitched the Phillies were 27-10.
Technically the Phillies were 30-11 when he started a game that year...which is even better.
Posted on 7/26/23 at 9:17 am to EvrybodysAllAmerican
Another thing about Carlton. He was into Oriental/martial arts/etc. style training. He used to run in place for an hour in a vat of rice. Contemplate how frickin’ difficult and demanding that would be, the resistance it would involve.
Posted on 7/26/23 at 9:30 am to InkStainedWretch
quote:
Another thing about Carlton. He was into Oriental/martial arts/etc. style training. He used to run in place for an hour in a vat of rice. Contemplate how frickin’ difficult and demanding that would be, the resistance it would involve.
There must be something to that because his longevity and ability to stay healthy was incredible. Once he became an established big leaguer at age 22, he only had one season prior to turning 40 where he pitched less than 30 games. He threw a ton of innings, started a ton of games, and pitched well into his 40s.
Posted on 7/26/23 at 10:48 am to VinegarStrokes
Carlton was the first 300 game winner to save a game for a 300 game winner (Niekro).
Their combined ages at the time was 90.
Their combined ages at the time was 90.
Posted on 7/26/23 at 11:06 am to InkStainedWretch
quote:
And following up on my epistle, IMO Carlton is only underrated if you're going to try to make the argument that he was the GOAT, and I don't think he's close.
I think OP was more referencing that people not obsessed with MLB history don't really talk about him in the same sentence as Koufax (who is never ignored, partly due to Scully, mythologized.). Ryan, Clemens, Maddux, Pedro, Gibson, Johnson & Johnson, Feller, Spahn and soon all the unretired pitchers that will probably pass him in fame and rememberance.
He doesn't seem to have that cache in the public eye. Who really knew how amazing his stats/record was until they read this thread? And wasn't MLB obsessed.
His career and #s are WAY better relative to how little he's talked about.
This post was edited on 7/26/23 at 11:10 am
Posted on 7/26/23 at 11:12 am to LeeVanCleef
I think he’s firmly top 10 SP by most
Posted on 7/26/23 at 11:36 am to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
Great point!
Posted on 7/26/23 at 11:39 am to Lester Earl
IMO once you get past the top nine or so, you have a whole bunch of people right together so I wouldn’t argue with someone who wanted to say Lefty was top 10. It’s all subjective. I don’t think he was better than W. Johnson, Grove, Clemens, C. Young, Seaver, Maddux, R. Johnson, Alexander or Mathewson. YMMV certainly.
Posted on 7/26/23 at 11:53 am to LeeVanCleef
While loving this thread, and your general assertions. The Phillies Phanatic in me is slightly offended at the notion he played on a hapless or bad organization.
Carlton was Philly from 1972 to 1986, fifteen seasons, went to two World Series(beat KC in 1980, lost to Balt in 1983), played in five NLCS(lost to Cinn in 1976, lost LA Dodgers in 1977 & 1978, beat Hou in 1980, beat LA Dodgers in 1983)
Most MLB players would be tickled to go to a World Series every 7.5 years, and the League Championship Series 33% of their tenure with a team. With one WS ring.
Carlton was Philly from 1972 to 1986, fifteen seasons, went to two World Series(beat KC in 1980, lost to Balt in 1983), played in five NLCS(lost to Cinn in 1976, lost LA Dodgers in 1977 & 1978, beat Hou in 1980, beat LA Dodgers in 1983)
Most MLB players would be tickled to go to a World Series every 7.5 years, and the League Championship Series 33% of their tenure with a team. With one WS ring.
Posted on 7/26/23 at 12:03 pm to InkStainedWretch
the only dead ball guy i would put before Carlton is Walter Johnson. Carlton > Niekro
Posted on 7/26/23 at 12:48 pm to Lester Earl
We can agree to disagree, hopefully not disagreeably. With a better team Niekro would’ve won close to 400 games.
Posted on 7/26/23 at 12:55 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
Carlton > Niekro
This
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