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Message
re: Small Market NFL Teams.....
Posted on 2/7/10 at 12:40 pm to Baloo
Posted on 2/7/10 at 12:40 pm to Baloo
quote:
The NFL actually has pretty poor competitive balance as it is the league most susceptible aside from the NBA to dynasties over the past 30 years
the last 9 years, 9 different NFC teams have been in the Super Bowl.
You always base this off teams that win the title, which I think you have to know is a pretty bad way to measure it. More different teams have won the WS from 80-09, i counted it out 1 time from 95 (which is around when the current economic situations in both sports took effect) and more NFL teams (counting only the top 4 seeds in each conference since only 4 teams from each league make the MLB playoffs) made the playoffs. Since 95 the Yankees have won 5 WS, the most SB won by 1 team is 3 by NE.
BTW: In the last 90 years, 1 team has won 27 or 30% of the World Series, but yeah football is more prone to dynasties.
1
Posted on 2/7/10 at 12:40 pm to RandyMarsh
Small market in terms of population but not in salary paid out or in terms of visibility, actually isnt Jacksonville smaller market than NOLA also?
Posted on 2/7/10 at 12:42 pm to Baloo
quote:
Salary caps do not create competitive balance, revenue sharing does. Salary caps do one thing and one thing only: hold down salaries.
Salary caps creat balance because the wealthiest teams can't buy up all of the talent. Revenue sharing is good for the league only when they are sharing the national contracts - such as NFL television money or National Sponsors. Some owners are pissed that 1. Players want part of their local money - such as ticket sales and concession money - when players were only getting a percentage of national revenues and 2. Wealthier ownes don't want to share the local revenue that their teams earn with teams that aren't as wealthy and they are rightfully pissed about both cases.
Posted on 2/7/10 at 12:42 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
if the owners are fighting amongst themselves, doesn't that eliminate any anti-trust argument?
No. That's like arguing that a dispute bewteen the Detroit and NY offices of Multi-Conglomerate X renders them as separate entities. Disputes happen, even within a single entity.
And single entity is not a requirement for all antitrust cases. And the current case, they would need to act as seperate entities when negotiating licensing. Which the labor dispute does not effect.
Posted on 2/7/10 at 12:47 pm to sms151t
quote:
Small market in terms of population but not in salary paid out or in terms of visibility, actually isnt Jacksonville smaller market than NOLA also?
Being a small market team has nothing to do with salary at all. New Orleans has a city population of just under 400,000 with a Metro pop of just over 1.1 million. Jacksonville has a city population of over 800,000 with a Metro population of just over 1.3 million. By comparison, the Metro area of Green Bay is home to just over 300,000 people. Statistical speaking, Anchorage is a larger market than Green Bay.
Posted on 2/7/10 at 12:48 pm to Baloo
Baloo, isnt the fact that each owner compete individually for local merchandising and advertising take away the anti-trust obligation for your senario, much like when Jones signed the Pepsi, Ford, and Frito-Lay deals.
Posted on 2/7/10 at 12:52 pm to sms151t
quote:
Jones signed the Pepsi, Ford, and Frito-Lay deals.
Those are stadium deals - not official NFL deals. Some teams auction off their "pouring rights", which basically gives a particular soft drink company the rights to distribute their product in the stadium and are usually given some ads in the stadium.
Posted on 2/7/10 at 1:00 pm to H-Town Tiger
Once again, I limited it to the last 30 years, as that's the death of the reserve clause. there is no similarity to sports today and how it operated in the days of the reserve clause.
In the last 30 years in baseball, dynasties are fairly rare. Now, recently the Yankees have been able to dominate their division, not just due to salary cap, but do to their revenue stream. they have a massive cable deal that they don't share. the problem is not the cap, it is not sharing revenue. The Yankees MAKE hundreds of millions more.
The NFL routinely has dynasties. The 49ers, the Redskins, then the Cowboys, then the Patriots. Look at the AFC, the stronger of the two conferences: three or four teams absolutely dominate despite all sorts of instituitional devices to bring about parity (the biggest being REVENUE SHARING).
The NBA has a cap and very little parity as well. It's about sharing revenue. Caps are designed only to keep salries down. Competitiveness is a red herring.
In the last 30 years in baseball, dynasties are fairly rare. Now, recently the Yankees have been able to dominate their division, not just due to salary cap, but do to their revenue stream. they have a massive cable deal that they don't share. the problem is not the cap, it is not sharing revenue. The Yankees MAKE hundreds of millions more.
The NFL routinely has dynasties. The 49ers, the Redskins, then the Cowboys, then the Patriots. Look at the AFC, the stronger of the two conferences: three or four teams absolutely dominate despite all sorts of instituitional devices to bring about parity (the biggest being REVENUE SHARING).
The NBA has a cap and very little parity as well. It's about sharing revenue. Caps are designed only to keep salries down. Competitiveness is a red herring.
Posted on 2/7/10 at 1:06 pm to Message Board User
quote:
Cause everything I've seen is the small market owners will never agree to uncapped seasons and, in fact, the small market NBA owners spearheaded and sent a memo to the NBA players union indicating they want a hard cap, like in the NFL.
fixed.
you better believe the the Giants and Cowboys of the NFL would LOVE no cap.
Posted on 2/7/10 at 1:07 pm to RandyMarsh
Huh Randy?
In this thread earlier I stated the same thing you just said, I am confused on what side of argument you are making now.
As for the Stadium deals I posted earlier, that is Licensing and part of NFL if the Anti Trust protection is granted, from what I remember. It was a huge deal when Jones went after Pepsi, because nobody else had done that until then. Just like the Ford deal.
In this thread earlier I stated the same thing you just said, I am confused on what side of argument you are making now.
As for the Stadium deals I posted earlier, that is Licensing and part of NFL if the Anti Trust protection is granted, from what I remember. It was a huge deal when Jones went after Pepsi, because nobody else had done that until then. Just like the Ford deal.
Posted on 2/7/10 at 1:08 pm to Baloo
Ten Smallest Markets in the NFL-
TV markets
quote:
24) Indianapolis
26) Pittsburgh
27) Kansas City
32) Charlotte
38) Cincinnati
39) New Orleans
40) Nashville
44) Jacksonville
53) Buffalo
56) Green Bay
TV markets
Posted on 2/7/10 at 1:15 pm to H-Town Tiger
Just because Dallas won titles in the 90's and Washington tries to buy every big name and has no titles completely misses my point. My point is the farm systems players is the only hope the small market teams got and small market teams cant retain those guys anymore. Whats really bad is not being able to resign farm players and getting out bid on every half arse free agent. There is nothing fair about the structure of MLB right now. Do you really believe that MLB plays on a level playing field?
Posted on 2/7/10 at 1:16 pm to Baloo
quote:
The Yankees MAKE hundreds of millions more.
You are clueless
Posted on 2/7/10 at 1:19 pm to STEALTH
quote:
There is nothing fair about the structure of MLB right now. Do you really believe that MLB plays on a level playing field?
Since 1995
NFL: 55 appearances for ten smallest markets (5.5 appearances per team)
MLB: 29 appearances for ten smallest markets (2.9 appearances per team)
Posted on 2/7/10 at 1:25 pm to TigerintheNO
quote:
Ten Smallest Markets in the NFL-
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
24) Indianapolis
26) Pittsburgh
27) Kansas City
32) Charlotte
38) Cincinnati
39) New Orleans
40) Nashville
44) Jacksonville
53) Buffalo
56) Green Bay
Thats why the NFL enjoys the success it does. The salary cap issue is going to put all these teams at a huge disadvantage.
Posted on 2/7/10 at 2:21 pm to Baloo
You are right about salary caps and revenue sharing. IF you have a cap there has to be revenue sharing, a salary floor and its got to be tied to total revenue.
I would quibble with this a little. I think the term dynasty gets tossed around too easily. I think the nature of the sports makes it easier for more baseball teams to win. In the end in both sports, well run teams will win, if not multiple titles, they will still wins games, like the Braves thru the 90's and deep into this decade, the A's early this decade, the Chargers and Eagles in football this decade etc.
quote:
The NFL routinely has dynasties.
I would quibble with this a little. I think the term dynasty gets tossed around too easily. I think the nature of the sports makes it easier for more baseball teams to win. In the end in both sports, well run teams will win, if not multiple titles, they will still wins games, like the Braves thru the 90's and deep into this decade, the A's early this decade, the Chargers and Eagles in football this decade etc.
Posted on 2/7/10 at 3:00 pm to H-Town Tiger
thought some of y'all might be interested in this
quote:
One thing struck me right off the bat: comparing the MLB and NFL is faulty to begin with because the MLB is a much "bigger" league than the NFL, and certainly much more densely populated in certain areas. Whereas the NFL boasts teams in New York (2), San Francisco Bay area (2) and Chicago (1), there is no Los Angeles team, and the smallest television markets are Green Bay and Buffalo. By contrast, the MLB boasts two teams each in New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, and the Bay Area. The smallest general television markets in the MLB are are Cincinnati and Milwaukee.
There is a rather large difference in comparing the average league market ratings.
Already it makes sense to question why revenue sharing is necessarily in the NFL and not in the MLB: Whereas the NFL must support 9 teams ranked 25th or lower in general television market size, the MLB must support 4 such markets.
So, in a revenue sharing debate, the MLB already has the deck stacked against it if you choose the NFL as a debate partner. You cannot simply compare the two leagues without a lot of different qualifications -- both at the top of the league, and the bottom of the league.
MLB Playoff scarcity: In order to compare the two leagues, each NFL spot must equal 1.5 playoff spots in the MLB; that is, if you would like to compare the MLB and NFL teams in "city x" over the past 14 years, and the NFL team has 6 playoff spots versus the MLB team's 4 playoff spots, that does not prove the superiority of the NFL. In fact, I'm not sure what it proves.
What a 6 : 4 playoff appearance between NFL and MLB does suggest is something close to "equivalent competition." Basically, for every 6 NFL playoff spots, count 4 MLB playoff spots as equivalent.
There are simply more NFL playoff spots, and the MLB should not be punished for holding scarce playoff spots.
Posted on 2/7/10 at 3:16 pm to STEALTH
quote:
Just because Dallas won titles in the 90's misses my poin
No it doesn't, you said they can't compete on a level playing field so they are trying to attempt and fix things in their favor. That's nonsense. Dallas and other high revenue teams are wanting to keep more of the local money they make. The uncapped year is not about some teams wanting to buy a title. It was designed to get both parties to the table and has negative effects for both. For example the top 8 seeds, which includes Dallas BTW, can only sign FA's at the rate they lose them. Also teams have extra franchise tags to use, and players need 6 years, instead of 4 before they become free agent, this affects the 2006 draft class that includes some great players like MJD, D. Ryans, Owen Daniels and M. Colston that were drafted in late rounds. Dallas has not won a SB in while because Jerry Jones, while a great business man is not a good GM, except for Parcells the coaches he's hired have been basically yes men. The ability to spend more on players won't improve his decision making ability. The Mets, Dodgers, Orioles have all spent tons in recent year on FA and have zero to show for it. Even the Yankees have shown they win more when they build with their own players.
quote:
farm systems players is the only hope the small market teams got and small market teams cant retain those guys anymore.
well they can't keep those guys orever, but if they are smart, like Tampa, Milwaukee, Oakland, Minnesota and Florida have been they can win. The Pirates suck because they are a pitiful run organization not because they don't make as much revenue.
quote:
There is nothing fair about the structure of MLB right now. Do you really believe that MLB plays on a level playing field?
Is there anything fair about say, college football or even college basketball? Aren't the traditional powers in both always going to attract better players? Don't the big teams make more money and use that to improve their facilities and pay coaches enormous sums of money? Is it fair to Tulane or Toledo that they could not keep Mack Brown and Nick Saban?
Spending more money on players does not automatically equal success. Baseball has proven that time and again.
I see both sides of the revenue sharing argument. One the hand the high revenue teams make more local thru their own marketing, why should their share, especially if the teams getting the shared revenue don't put it toward player salaries, and there have been complaints that teams like the Pirates just pocket their piece of luxury tax $. OTOH, teams like the Yankees and Cowboys can't survive with out other teams to play. It is their long term interest to have some competitive balance.
Posted on 2/8/10 at 4:18 am to H-Town Tiger
Small Market Team= Super Bowl Champ & Runnerup
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