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re: Pretty tough to argue against Manning being the GOAT at this point
Posted on 9/24/13 at 8:10 am to Sophandros
Posted on 9/24/13 at 8:10 am to Sophandros
quote:
Again, this holds true only if you are a lazy thinker who holds a team accomplishment above a player's production when judging an individual's accomplishment.
You're just as lazy a thinker as I am if you just want to go by personal stats. Why? Because rules have changed over the last 20 years that have made it easier for QBs to surgically dissect defenses. As a result, stats have become inflated beyond proportion. A player like Tony Romo wouldn't be able to throw for 4,000+ yards if he were playing the game in the 70s or 80s. Rules that inhibit the defense have made it possible for QBs to put up gaudy stats week in and week out.
As a result, you have to look at EVERYTHING when judging the legacy of a QB. You have to look at their regular season performance, their post-season performance, and you have to look at the number of championships they won. You can't just look at regular season stats or Super Bowl wins.
This post was edited on 9/24/13 at 8:11 am
2
Posted on 9/24/13 at 8:15 am to brgfather129
quote:
Did you just list Matt Ryan in the top 20 quarterbacks of the last 40 years?
Well...he is last out of 17...who else would be better?
Vick?
Cam Newton?
Vinny T?
Bernie Kosar?
Doug Flutie?
Jim Everette?
Jeff Blake?
Collin K?
Alex Smith?
Carson Palmer?
Phil Simms?
Mark Rypien?
Jeff George?
Jeff Garcia?
You are acting like there are 50 great QBs since 75. There really aren't.
This post was edited on 9/24/13 at 8:19 am
Posted on 9/24/13 at 8:18 am to 632627
quote:
me, brady is montana light. montana is #1, and brady probably has the strongest argument for 2nd all time
Uh...no. Brady was good but by no means great in his Super Bowl years. His numbers were very similar to Flacco's until 2007. Brady won in those years because of defense and special teams.
Posted on 9/24/13 at 8:19 am to RollTide1987
In the case of playoff performances as a big factor, then Mark Sanchez must not be a bad quarterback right?
Posted on 9/24/13 at 8:25 am to Sammy1313
quote:
In the case of playoff performances as a big factor, then Mark Sanchez must not be a bad quarterback right?
Yeah...because Sanchez has been to the playoffs SO many times.
Let me know when he has a 16-7 playoff record (Joe Montana's post-season performance) or 17-7 playoff record (Tom Brady's post-season performance) and then maybe we will talk.
Posted on 9/24/13 at 8:26 am to RollTide1987
I do look at the full picture and I look at a bevy of advanced metrics that you probably have neither considered nor could comprehend.
Your problem is that you assign far too much weight on the equivalent of roughly one season's body of work.
Your problem is that you assign far too much weight on the equivalent of roughly one season's body of work.
Posted on 9/24/13 at 8:30 am to Sophandros
quote:
Your problem is that you assign far too much weight on the equivalent of roughly one season's body of work.
I think it's warranted as teams play the regular season to get to the post-season. The whole objective of the sport is to win games, not just put up gaudy numbers. So therefore there should be quite a bit of weight assigned to playoff performances.
Posted on 9/24/13 at 8:30 am to theunknownknight
quote:
theunknownknight
Ummm...for starters...how about Steve McNair?
Posted on 9/24/13 at 8:31 am to RollTide1987
Agreed here. To totally ignore playoff performance in this argument makes an opinion null and void. I could go through and cherry pick anyone that had great stats as the GOAT, but it just isn't true.
Not making the playoffs due to being on bad teams is one thing, but when you're the greatest regular season QB of all time (which Manning is) and routinely lead teams to 12+ wins only to play terribly in the playoffs and lose over and again, often in the first game, you can not be called the best. Top 5 yes, but it's about more than the regular season and Peyton just can't win the big one more often than not.
I don't judge a QB's career status on Super Bowls alone or else Terry Bradshaw would be up there, but at some point you have to dock points for lack of clutch outside the regular season.
Not making the playoffs due to being on bad teams is one thing, but when you're the greatest regular season QB of all time (which Manning is) and routinely lead teams to 12+ wins only to play terribly in the playoffs and lose over and again, often in the first game, you can not be called the best. Top 5 yes, but it's about more than the regular season and Peyton just can't win the big one more often than not.
I don't judge a QB's career status on Super Bowls alone or else Terry Bradshaw would be up there, but at some point you have to dock points for lack of clutch outside the regular season.
Posted on 9/24/13 at 8:57 am to Starchild
Post-season resumes of some of those considered the best of all time.
Joe Montana: 16-7; 45 TDs-21 INTs; 95.6 RTG
Tom Brady: 17-7; 42 TDs-22 INTs; 87.4 RTG
Peyton Manning: 9-11; 32 TDs-21 INTs; 88.4 RTG
Dan Marino: 8-10; 32 TDs-24 INTs; 77.1 RTG
John Elway: 14-8; 27 TDs-21 INTs; 79.7 RTG
Johnny Unitas: 6-3; 7 TDs-10 INTs; 68.9 RTG
Bart Starr: 9-1; 15 TDs-3 INTs; 104.8 RTG - Very damn impressive passing stats considering the era.
Otto Graham: 9-4 (No post-season stats available, 174 TDs-135 INTs in career)
Obviously, those who actually have paid attention to football understand that as a whole, QB rating is pretty inflated these days as opposed to 20 years ago and earlier, as rules and offensive designs aid in higher completion percentages. This is still a pretty good comparison when talking about greatest QB of all time, though, in my non-professional opinion.
Joe Montana: 16-7; 45 TDs-21 INTs; 95.6 RTG
Tom Brady: 17-7; 42 TDs-22 INTs; 87.4 RTG
Peyton Manning: 9-11; 32 TDs-21 INTs; 88.4 RTG
Dan Marino: 8-10; 32 TDs-24 INTs; 77.1 RTG
John Elway: 14-8; 27 TDs-21 INTs; 79.7 RTG
Johnny Unitas: 6-3; 7 TDs-10 INTs; 68.9 RTG
Bart Starr: 9-1; 15 TDs-3 INTs; 104.8 RTG - Very damn impressive passing stats considering the era.
Otto Graham: 9-4 (No post-season stats available, 174 TDs-135 INTs in career)
Obviously, those who actually have paid attention to football understand that as a whole, QB rating is pretty inflated these days as opposed to 20 years ago and earlier, as rules and offensive designs aid in higher completion percentages. This is still a pretty good comparison when talking about greatest QB of all time, though, in my non-professional opinion.
This post was edited on 9/24/13 at 8:58 am
Posted on 9/24/13 at 8:59 am to Starchild
quote:
routinely lead teams to 12+ wins only to play terribly in the playoffs and lose over and again,
Manning and Brady have the same qb rating in the regular season, 96.3 (all stats per pro football reference).
In the post season, Brady drops to 87.4 while Manning drops to 88.4.
Brady's regular season yards per attempt is 7.48; post season is 6.71. Manning? 7.66 and 7.46.
When it comes to interceptions (you know, poor play, choking...), Brady was intercepted on 2.05% of his passes in the regular season and 2.48% in the post season (43 basis points worse). Manning? 2.64% and 2.76% (12 basis points worse).
So who really got worse in the playoffs?
Posted on 9/24/13 at 9:05 am to ragincajun03
You could include Brees's 5-4, 22 tds, 4 int and 103.9 rating...which is, unlike most qbs, better than his regular season #s...
Posted on 9/24/13 at 9:12 am to Sophandros
You're right. I don't think he's in the discussion yet about best QB of all time, but a few more seasons of current Brees form, and another Super Bowl trip, he would certainly be in the discussion.
Speaking of QBs regular season vs. post season, freaking Jake Delhomme, take out his last playoff game (5 INT performance vs. Arizona), and the dude would have 11 TDs-5 INTs with every game except the loss to Seattle being over 90 rating. His first 6 post-season game stats are pretty impressive, then the last 2 were complete tanks.
Kind of crazy.
Speaking of QBs regular season vs. post season, freaking Jake Delhomme, take out his last playoff game (5 INT performance vs. Arizona), and the dude would have 11 TDs-5 INTs with every game except the loss to Seattle being over 90 rating. His first 6 post-season game stats are pretty impressive, then the last 2 were complete tanks.
Kind of crazy.
This post was edited on 9/24/13 at 9:16 am
Posted on 9/24/13 at 9:12 am to theunknownknight
quote:
Uh...no. Brady was good but by no means great in his Super Bowl years. His numbers were very similar to Flacco's until 2007. Brady won in those years because of defense and special teams.
brady, like montana, was the ultimate field general and best in the clutch. brady has never had a running game to help him out, and up until he got welker and moss, had no big time recievers.
manning on the other hand had wayne, harrison and clark to throw to his whole time in indy, as well as edgerrin james for many years.
Posted on 9/24/13 at 9:17 am to 632627
2004. Corey Dillon. 1600 yards.
But I guess Brady had no running game for any of his rings.
ETA: I think it's kinda awesome that neither Welker nor Moss won a ring in NE.
But I guess Brady had no running game for any of his rings.
ETA: I think it's kinda awesome that neither Welker nor Moss won a ring in NE.
This post was edited on 9/24/13 at 9:19 am
Posted on 9/24/13 at 9:30 am to Sophandros
quote:
So who really got worse in the playoffs?
Not a fair comparison as Brady has played in 4 more post-season games and, as has been pointed out several times, didn't become a prolific passer until 2007. While Manning has had excellent wide receivers to throw to throughout his career, Brady has only ever had Welker and Moss. Add the fact that competition gets better in the playoffs, and the fact that Brady had inferior talent to get the ball to, it becomes apparent why Brady's numbers dropped.
However...once again you are only focusing on stats. At the end of the day, while Brady's stats are below Manning's in post season play, Brady has a 17-7 playoff record while Manning has a 9-11 record.
This post was edited on 9/24/13 at 9:31 am
Posted on 9/24/13 at 9:39 am to RollTide1987
Are you that dense. That isnt the record of either player, thats records for those teams
Posted on 9/24/13 at 9:42 am to Sophandros
quote:
But of course he misplayed a deep pass thrown by Flacco...
No, but he did throw a costly pick in overtime that set up the game winning field goal ...
Posted on 9/24/13 at 9:43 am to josh336
quote:
Are you that dense. That isnt the record of either player, thats records for those teams
The above is what intellectually challenged people argue when they have nothing else to argue with. Forget the fact that, since journalists started covering modern football, the record of a QB and the team he plays for has always gone hand in hand. Forget the fact that every expert who does this for a living uses W-L record to factor in their opinion on every QB who has ever played the game.
Josh336 is smarter than all of them as well as the journalists and pundits who have come before them.
Posted on 9/24/13 at 9:48 am to RollTide1987
quote:
Not a fair comparison as Brady has played in 4 more post-season games
That's why I used rate stats, not counting stats.
quote:
However...once again you are only focusing on stats.
No, I am looking at production in the post season when, as you admitted, you face stiffer competition. Manning fared better than Brady against stiffer competition. You even admit that Brady wasn't a top qb until after their SB wins...
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