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re: Myth: It was harder for star NBA players to score in the 80's and 90's than now.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 12:14 pm to brgfather129
Posted on 3/15/15 at 12:14 pm to brgfather129
quote:We're not talking zone as in a "2-3" or "3-2". It's a combination of man and zone where although players are guarding a man, they also guard spots on the floor when their man doesn't have the ball.
Teams rarely play a zone defense now.
They leave their assignments to help or deter players from driving, etc.
1
Posted on 3/15/15 at 12:17 pm to Buckeye06
quote:How about this... provide the exact quotes you are talking about, and then we'll talk. Wording is important.
Those quotes were made after both rules were put into place. You are just picking and choosing what you want for your argument.
I dug up quotes. You can do it too if you want to make a point about something someone else said.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 12:17 pm to RTR America
The fact that you are lumping the 80's (worst defenses ever) to the 90's particularly the late 90's(most defense heavy period ever) shows you don't know shite about the NBA.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 12:17 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
We're not talking zone as in a "2-3" or "3-2". It's a combination of man and zone where although players are guarding a man, they also guard spots on the floor when their man doesn't have the ball.
I know what you are trying to do...you are acting like players "leaving their assignments" is some new concept.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 12:19 pm to brgfather129
quote:It's not a new concept... but it's new to the NBA. That wasn't allowed under the old rules.
I know what you are trying to do...you are acting like players "leaving their assignments" is some new concept.
You could only peel off your man and help once the offensive player made a move to the basket.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 12:25 pm to PrimeTime Money
I don't need quotes. Zone defenses were allowed before the hand checking rules were changed.
Therefore, when people say "Jordan would score 50" in today's NBA, it is taking both rules into account
Therefore, when people say "Jordan would score 50" in today's NBA, it is taking both rules into account
Posted on 3/15/15 at 12:26 pm to PrimeTime Money
If you want a perfect example of it look at how the Grizzlies defended Durant in the playoffs. Tony Allen trying to prevent him from catching the ball and Marc Gasol always shading over to help once he catches.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 12:30 pm to Buckeye06
quote:If you are going to talk about what somebody else said, you are going to need to provide the quote you are referencing.
I don't need quotes. Zone defenses were allowed before the hand checking rules were changed.
Therefore, when people say "Jordan would score 50" in today's NBA, it is taking both rules into account
Secondly, zone defense was outlawed in the NBA in 1947
Posted on 3/15/15 at 12:37 pm to PrimeTime Money
Steve Smith hates the current style too because it hurts the superstar... I'm transcribing from the show "Open Court" on NBA TV:
Ernie Johnson: : If you guys had the opportunity and you were the commissioner, what would you change?
Steve Smith: I despise the zone defense. I think it's taken so much away from the game. When we first came into the league, you guard your man. If you couldn't guard your man, you couldn't guard the superstar... that's what made the game so beautiful - you'd send a double team. Then the ball would rotate. I understand they said the ball was sticking and not moving, but that was part of the game. I think they've changed the game so much, European style, it's taken away the big man. I think also it's taken away the open shot... the corner 3 when it was a swing, swing. That was beautiful basketball. I do not like the zone defense. If you can't guard your man, then you just can't play, or you'd go get help.
-------------------
What Steve Smith is referencing is that if you send a double team back then, the rules meant they could only execute a real double team where the defenders had to aggressively guard the ball. They couldn't hang out in space and wait for the right moment to help out. They had to both double the ball.
And what would happen is the offensive player would just pass to the open man that the defensive player left to come double team, and it would make an easy open shot.
Offensive players could see the aggressive double team coming from a mile away because they had to leave their man and come all the way over to help on the ball. They couldn't just hang out in space.
Ernie Johnson: : If you guys had the opportunity and you were the commissioner, what would you change?
Steve Smith: I despise the zone defense. I think it's taken so much away from the game. When we first came into the league, you guard your man. If you couldn't guard your man, you couldn't guard the superstar... that's what made the game so beautiful - you'd send a double team. Then the ball would rotate. I understand they said the ball was sticking and not moving, but that was part of the game. I think they've changed the game so much, European style, it's taken away the big man. I think also it's taken away the open shot... the corner 3 when it was a swing, swing. That was beautiful basketball. I do not like the zone defense. If you can't guard your man, then you just can't play, or you'd go get help.
-------------------
What Steve Smith is referencing is that if you send a double team back then, the rules meant they could only execute a real double team where the defenders had to aggressively guard the ball. They couldn't hang out in space and wait for the right moment to help out. They had to both double the ball.
And what would happen is the offensive player would just pass to the open man that the defensive player left to come double team, and it would make an easy open shot.
Offensive players could see the aggressive double team coming from a mile away because they had to leave their man and come all the way over to help on the ball. They couldn't just hang out in space.
This post was edited on 3/15/15 at 12:42 pm
Posted on 3/15/15 at 12:44 pm to PrimeTime Money
Lmao. If you really believe this, I got no words.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 12:47 pm to PrimeTime Money
Is the thread where I mention how DeAndre Jordan is more athletic and better than the elite bigs from the Dream Team?
Posted on 3/15/15 at 12:50 pm to LaBornNRaised
quote:If you disagree, make an argument against it.
Lmao. If you really believe this, I got no words.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 12:52 pm to Vicks Kennel Club
quote:No, nobody said that.
Is the thread where I mention how DeAndre Jordan is more athletic and better than the elite bigs from the Dream Team?
So far, you've gone with the strawman argument, and the ad hominem.
Two logical fallacies in one sentence is impressive.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 12:58 pm to PrimeTime Money
Like I said, I don't read the post and was just responding to the title. It is not a myth. It was more difficult to score back then. Hardens defense is an expample of how easy it is to score now.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 1:01 pm to Tigersfan
quote:How does one player's individual defense have anything to do with the argument?
Like I said, I don't read the post and was just responding to the title. It is not a myth. It was more difficult to score back then. Hardens defense is an expample of how easy it is to score now.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 1:02 pm to PrimeTime Money
A lot harder to score now than it was in the 80's and 90's.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 1:03 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
How does one player's individual defense have anything to do with the argument?
Houston's overall defensive rating helps your argument if he is making fun of Harden's individual defense.
Posted on 3/15/15 at 1:05 pm to PrimeTime Money
Its not a myth when its fact..
Posted on 3/15/15 at 1:05 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
So far, you've gone with the strawman argument
like cherry picking two quotes from articles written 15 years ago. You really dispelled the myth there!
"Charlotte's zone defense stifles 38 year old Michael Jordan!"
"Jordan never would have had the career he did!"
"You can eliminate stars from making things happened"
Riveting stuff there. Im sure the best players in the world would not have adapted to zone defenses. These guys today are revolutionizing the game, i tell ya!
Posted on 3/15/15 at 1:20 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
Riveting stuff there. Im sure the best players in the world would not have adapted to zone defenses. These guys today are revolutionizing the game, i tell ya!
Of course they would adapt. Just like todays players are adapting. He would adapt by taking less shots and spreading the ball more. If Michael Jordan was guarded by nobody, he would shoot close to 100% and score however many points he chooses. Since he was guarded by somebody he shot 55% or so and scored mid 30s per game. If he was guarded by 2 guys at all time, he would probably shoot a terrible percentage/not score more than 15 points a game.
Obviously the ability to have help side isn't the same as being constantly guarded by 2 men, but you can't just say "he would adapt" and all of a sudden that defender becomes of no defensive value.
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