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re: Just how important is the baseball closer: Mariano Rivera related
Posted on 1/23/19 at 6:39 am to lsupride87
Posted on 1/23/19 at 6:39 am to lsupride87
There were other players that deserved to be unanimous selections more than Rivera like Cal Ripken Jr, Greg Maddux, and Ken Griffey Jr. Rivera just happened to go on the ballot in a year when it was less crowded so voters didn’t have to vote strategically.
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Posted on 1/23/19 at 7:09 am to lsupride87
quote:
Teams have a 86.7% of winning leading by 1 run headed into the 9th, 93.7% when heading into the 9th up by 2, and 97.5% when leading by 3
Rivera’s save rate was 89.1%
This is a little misleading. A team can still win even if the closer blows the save. For a more helpful comparison, we would should look at the Yankee’s win % when handing the ball to Rivera with a lead in the 9th, not Rivera’s save %. Or we could just look at the average save rate compared to Rivera’s.
Posted on 1/23/19 at 7:41 am to Srbtiger06
quote:
The question shouldn't be "does he deserve to get 100% of the vote for the first time?" That makes it a comparison to other players that didn't get it for whatever reason. It should be "is he a HoF player?"
The answer is yes. If you're voting for the players with the greatest impact during their time in the bigs then Mo belongs on that list. When the ONLY argument against him is, "well yeah he's HoF material BUT these guys didn't get 100% of the vote so he shouldn't either," then it is a shite argument.
Yes, there are other players that should have been unanimous HoF picks and for whatever reason they weren't, but you can't argue Mo belonging in the hall.
ETA: Your post literally says, "he was the best at it." That alone should be the end of the discussion.
This is my view as well. There is no question that Rivera is a HOFer. If I had a vote, I would have voted for him. With that same thinking....all other voters would have as well..and he gets 100%. He deserves 100% because no on should be questioning "hmmm is he really HOF material?" the travesty is one of those unwritten rules of baseball.."Babe Ruth/Mickey Mantle etc didnt get 100..so no one should" Well thats in the past and cant be undone. Going forward though.. And this isnt a "who is better?" argument...Give me Bob Gibson everyday over Rivera. Give me Griffey as well (and many others who should have been 100%ers) but i have no prob with Rivera being 100% because is he a 1st ballot guy? Absolutely
(I wish my Cardinals had someonw that could make the other team play 7 1/3 to 8 innings instead of 9)
Posted on 1/23/19 at 8:06 am to Srbtiger06
quote:
That's the key. Mo did it 652 times and another 42 times in the postseason.
0.70 ERA in 141 postseason innings.
Posted on 1/23/19 at 8:58 am to Jon Ham
quote:But I am not sure that helps the closers case as being valuable....
A team can still win even if the closer blows the save
Winning the game is what matters
Posted on 1/23/19 at 9:10 am to lsupride87
Is anyone suggesting that Rivera is the greatest baseball player ever? No. And him getting 100% of the vote doesn't suggest that either. It just suggests that the voters didn't have their heads up their asses this year. That's it. Some of y'all are making too much out of this.
Posted on 1/23/19 at 9:20 am to Bham Bammer
I'm happy someone got 10% of the vote so we can all shut up about. Talk about much ado about nothing. If you look at why some guys didn't get 100%, it's really just a historical accident (Seaver didn't get 100% because someone accidentally mailed in a blank ballot).
But there's two issues here: are closers valuable and is Mariano Rivera that valuable? Because while I would argue ninth inning outs ARE more important, reflected in Leverage Index or WPA stats (Mo ranks 5th all-time, the highest reliever), there is no more coddled class of athletes than modern closers. Closers are overrated, and they do pitch to a statistic, but...
Mo Rivera has the highest ERA+ of any pitcher ever. And its not particularly close. And yeah, he didn't pitch a lot of innings, but he pitched a ton of high leverage innings. His innings mattered more, but even that misses out on the greatness of Mo.
Mo Rivera could have never thrown a pitch in the regular season and he'd still be a Hall of Famer. He has a career 0.70 postseason ERA over 141 IP. He is, without a doubt, the greatest postseason pitcher of all-time. He is the key reason the Yankees won so many titles. And he pitched in 96 postgames to get that 141 IP, so its not like he was getting trotted out for one inning saves. Whenever a tam threatened a late rally against the Yankees, Mo came in and closed the door. He was the best in the postseason. Better than Gibson, better than Morris, better than Pedro, better than Koufax, better than Grove. He was the single best postseason pitcher in baseball history, and that is why he is in the Hall of Fame.
But there's two issues here: are closers valuable and is Mariano Rivera that valuable? Because while I would argue ninth inning outs ARE more important, reflected in Leverage Index or WPA stats (Mo ranks 5th all-time, the highest reliever), there is no more coddled class of athletes than modern closers. Closers are overrated, and they do pitch to a statistic, but...
Mo Rivera has the highest ERA+ of any pitcher ever. And its not particularly close. And yeah, he didn't pitch a lot of innings, but he pitched a ton of high leverage innings. His innings mattered more, but even that misses out on the greatness of Mo.
Mo Rivera could have never thrown a pitch in the regular season and he'd still be a Hall of Famer. He has a career 0.70 postseason ERA over 141 IP. He is, without a doubt, the greatest postseason pitcher of all-time. He is the key reason the Yankees won so many titles. And he pitched in 96 postgames to get that 141 IP, so its not like he was getting trotted out for one inning saves. Whenever a tam threatened a late rally against the Yankees, Mo came in and closed the door. He was the best in the postseason. Better than Gibson, better than Morris, better than Pedro, better than Koufax, better than Grove. He was the single best postseason pitcher in baseball history, and that is why he is in the Hall of Fame.
Posted on 1/23/19 at 9:54 am to Bham Bammer
I really am not making the “100%” argument
I am making the “should a closer make the hall period” conversation
I am making the “should a closer make the hall period” conversation
Posted on 1/23/19 at 10:04 am to lsupride87
quote:
I am making the “should a closer make the hall period” conversation
You’re basing this argument of those percentages you posted a page ago?
Jesus dude. I’m convinced you just love to argue dumb shite
Posted on 1/23/19 at 10:05 am to lsupride87
You may not be, but a lot of people in the thread are.
Closers for a period of 30-40 years or so have been a key part of the game. Their value may have been overstated at times, but I don't see any issue with recognizing who the absolute best were at that particular role.
Closers for a period of 30-40 years or so have been a key part of the game. Their value may have been overstated at times, but I don't see any issue with recognizing who the absolute best were at that particular role.
Posted on 1/23/19 at 10:07 am to Riseupfromtherubble
I am basing it off the idea that the average replacement closer isn’t going to be make a material difference in either direction
I know WAR is hard to use for closers, but it pretty much shows their low value
I’m fine with people disagreeing, so i am really not arguing per se. Because I am just not sure who is right and how the hell you actually put a true value on a closer
I know WAR is hard to use for closers, but it pretty much shows their low value
I’m fine with people disagreeing, so i am really not arguing per se. Because I am just not sure who is right and how the hell you actually put a true value on a closer
Posted on 1/23/19 at 10:10 am to Baloo
quote:
Mo Rivera has the highest ERA+ of any pitcher ever. And its not particularly close. And yeah, he didn't pitch a lot of innings, but he pitched a ton of high leverage innings. His innings mattered more, but even that misses out on the greatness of Mo.
Mo was a beast, but I'd like to see what his ERA+ would be adjusted for the fact that teams score between 10-15% fewer runs in the 9th inning on the whole.
He's so far ahead that he'd likely still be #1.
Posted on 1/23/19 at 10:11 am to lsupride87
i think its fair to question how valuable these guys are if you look at them like baseball has in the past. where you just lock them up and save them for the ninth no matter what
but if you look at them like the brewers are? that makes a guy like josh hader so incredibly valuable. a terminator who can come in whenever they want to face whatever part of the lineup that they want and pitch however many innings they need
but if you look at them like the brewers are? that makes a guy like josh hader so incredibly valuable. a terminator who can come in whenever they want to face whatever part of the lineup that they want and pitch however many innings they need
Posted on 1/23/19 at 10:12 am to Bham Bammer
quote:Joe Nathan
but I don't see any issue with recognizing who the absolute best were at that particular role.
I kid I kid, I think
But its worth noting Nathan has a higher career save percentage. frick I dont know anymore
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