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re: How convienient it is about Jordan
Posted on 6/14/17 at 9:59 pm to buckeye_vol
Posted on 6/14/17 at 9:59 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
So clearly the difference wasn't that Jordan played better than Lebron,
See. This is the problem with stats. People draw conclusions from stats that the stats don't show. None of your stats proved the quoted statement.
quote:
Well they are far more useful than using our subjective observations and memory.
Sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't.
This post was edited on 6/14/17 at 10:01 pm
3
Posted on 6/14/17 at 10:06 pm to Weagle25
quote:What? I showed that LeBron and Jordan provided the same contribution (albeit Jordan's is higher on a per possession basis), but Jordan's teammates provides more more than LeBron's (and even greater on a per possession basis).
See. This is the problem with stats. People draw conclusions from stats that the stats don't show. None of your stats proved the quoted statement.
How do that stats not show that? You are like a broken record though. Every time a person backs their argument up with data, you say the interpretation is incorrect, yet you never provided any justification. You're either being lazy or ignorant; I can't tell.
Posted on 6/14/17 at 10:08 pm to Weagle25
quote:Unless the observation applies systematic and objective methodology (like Lowe breaking down plays), then observations are always inferior.
Sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't.
Posted on 6/14/17 at 10:14 pm to Weagle25
quote:So, when you say it's not a slam dunk that LeBron has faced tougher opponents in the Finals(excusing how absurd that idea is) what exactly is your argument for MJ facing tougher opponents?
See. This is the problem with stats. People draw conclusions from stats that the stats don't show. None of your stats proved the quoted statement.
quote:When is it one and when is it the other? Feels like this is a when the stats don't agree with your preconceived notions, that's when they aren't better than the eye test, no?
Sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't.
Posted on 6/14/17 at 10:19 pm to buckeye_vol
There's a lot of variables that aren't included in your stats. I mean you didn't even add in assists, rebounds or any of the other stat categories that we have. There's even variables that we don't have stat categories for. Maybe defenders shaded more toward MJ than they did Lebron which would open up his teammates and make it easier for his teammates to score. Yet that's not included in your stats either. I could go on and on but I don't fell like convincing you of this because it's a pretty basic concept.
Every stat we have has some sort of variable it doesn't account for. It would be pretty much impossible to come up with one that does account for every variable.
First of all, not what I've argued.
Second of all, you just want to throw data at me when my argument is the data can't show everything. Do you not understand the problem with that?
I can't help you if you won't read.
Every stat we have has some sort of variable it doesn't account for. It would be pretty much impossible to come up with one that does account for every variable.
quote:
Every time a person backs their argument up with data, you say the interpretation is incorrect
First of all, not what I've argued.
Second of all, you just want to throw data at me when my argument is the data can't show everything. Do you not understand the problem with that?
quote:
yet you never provided any justification.
I can't help you if you won't read.
Posted on 6/14/17 at 10:23 pm to shel311
quote:
So, when you say it's not a slam dunk that LeBron has faced tougher opponents in the Finals(excusing how absurd that idea is) what exactly is your argument for MJ facing tougher opponents?
I told you I didn't feel like arguing that. Especially when I have to convince you of the deficiencies of stats.
quote:
When is it one and when is it the other? Feels like this is a when the stats don't agree with your preconceived notions, that's when they aren't better than the eye test, no?
There's definitely a possibility of someone using it that way. Everybody has to make their own judgment call on when which one is better.
Y'all spute stuff off as fact though when it's really opinion. You can't compare teams that have never played and say anything as fact.
This post was edited on 6/14/17 at 10:27 pm
Posted on 6/14/17 at 10:26 pm to gobuxgo5
quote:
To never be an underdog in finals with his swag demeanor
Jordan was never the underdog because he was Michael fricking Jordan.
He was always the favorite because of who he was and what he did. If Lebron were that player he wouldn't always be the underdog.
Posted on 6/14/17 at 10:28 pm to Weagle25
quote:If you understand the difference in illegal defense rules, you would know that unequivocally defenders shade more towards LeBron because, by rule, they couldn't do so in MJ's era.
Maybe defenders shaded more toward MJ than they did Lebron which would open up his teammates and make it easier for his teammates to score. Yet that's not included in your stats either.
quote:Based on your point above, could you go on and on? I question that.
I could go on and on
quote:So why do you assume they all trend in the favor of the team's MJ faced? Even in your very bad example above, you said "maybe" but you didn't tell us how you actually felt and what you actually saw that would make it arguable.
Every stat we have has some sort of variable it doesn't account for.
quote:You go round and round making posts but somehow say you don't want to argue it when asked to give your reasons. That's odd, at best.
Second of all, you just want to throw data at me when my argument is the data can't show everything. Do you not understand the problem with that?
quote:You literally admitted you weren't providing in your next post, but now you're saying you did and I didn't read?
I can't help you if you won't read.
This post was edited on 6/14/17 at 10:29 pm
Posted on 6/14/17 at 10:29 pm to Weagle25
quote:I can't say as fact that MJ is better than James Harden, but ya know...
Y'all spute stuff off as fact though when it's really opinion. You can't compare teams that have never played and say anything as fact.
Posted on 6/14/17 at 10:30 pm to Goldrush25
quote:
Durant is better than all of these guys. Drexler and Payton don't even belong in the conversation.
The Sonics and Jazz were 65 win teams stacked with current and former all-stars. The Jazz had at the time arguably the two greatest players at their positions EVER.
The first three peat was against meh competition, but the second one was very tough.
Posted on 6/14/17 at 10:30 pm to Weagle25
quote:What? So you're refuting my stats (game score), but you don't have any idea that the things you're using to refute them, are included in the stats.
There's a lot of variables that aren't included in your stats. I mean you didn't even add in assists, rebounds or any of the other stat categories that we have.
quote:And you don't know the rules of basketball either, huh?
Maybe defenders shaded more toward MJ
quote:Of course. But they provide a lot more than you're implying, and using "less than perfect" is not a valid retort. Although, your lack of understanding of the basic stats is when more telling than your invalid arguments.
Every stat we have has some sort of variable it doesn't account for. It would be pretty much impossible to come up with one that does account for every variable.
quote:They "show" far more than they "don't." So when they accounted for more than not, and clearly show something, then the it's illogical to use the minority that unaccounted for as evidence to the contrary.
Second of all, you just want to throw data at me when my argument is the data can't show everything. Do you not understand the problem with that?
quote:Please refer to a post that is more than your ignorant and lazy "well it doesn't show everything" retorts.
I can't help you if you won't read.
Posted on 6/14/17 at 10:32 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:Well the Suns were probably Jordan's biggest challenge, but he played MUCH better in the first 3-peat than the second. His team was much better the second time around.
The Sonics and Jazz were 65 win teams stacked with current and former all-stars. The Jazz had at the time arguably the two greatest players at their positions EVER.
The first three peat was against meh competition, but the second one was very tough.
Posted on 6/14/17 at 10:33 pm to shel311
quote:
you understand the difference in illegal defense rules, you would know that unequivocally defenders shade more towards LeBron because, by rule, they couldn't do so in MJ's era.
It was just an example.
quote:
Based on your point above, could you go on and on? I question that.
I mean I don't know how you could deny that there's a shite ton of variables that aren't accounted for
quote:
So why do you assume they all trend in the favor of the team's MJ faced? Even in your very bad example above, you said "maybe" but you didn't tell us how you actually felt and what you actually saw that would make it arguable.
I didn't assume they all favored Jordan. I didn't say how I actually felt about that particular variable because I'm not arguing LBJ vs MJ right now.
quote:
You go round and round making posts but somehow say you don't want to argue it when asked to give your reasons. That's odd, at best.
quote:
You literally admitted you weren't providing in your next post, but now you're saying you did and I didn't read?
Well obviously you didn't read because that post wasn't even directed at you...
Posted on 6/14/17 at 10:35 pm to shel311
quote:
I can't say as fact that MJ is better than James Harden, but ya know...
Correct. It's an opinion.
Posted on 6/14/17 at 10:41 pm to Weagle25
quote:Right. It's an opinion that you point and laugh at the person who would dare say they can make the argument that Harden is better than MJ.
Correct. It's an opinion.
Posted on 6/14/17 at 10:41 pm to gobuxgo5
While I do agree that Jordan has never faced a team as good as this years Warriors team
Has LeBron ever had a team that could match up against Jordan's bulls? I do not think so at all. While LeBron has played on some really good teams, I'm not convinced he has played on a team that will go down as an historically great team.
The 2012 heat team that went on a 30 game win streak was great, and of course last year's squad that came back from being down 3-1 against the greatest regular season team in history. Both of these teams will be remembered, but I seriously doubt either team even has a chance against the 95 Bulls.
Has LeBron ever had a team that could match up against Jordan's bulls? I do not think so at all. While LeBron has played on some really good teams, I'm not convinced he has played on a team that will go down as an historically great team.
The 2012 heat team that went on a 30 game win streak was great, and of course last year's squad that came back from being down 3-1 against the greatest regular season team in history. Both of these teams will be remembered, but I seriously doubt either team even has a chance against the 95 Bulls.
Posted on 6/14/17 at 10:41 pm to buckeye_vol
Well sure, but his Finals performance against the Suns was probably he best inidividual Finals showing ever. He had what, 5 consecutive 40+ point games? He averaged like 45/10/8 that series.
He still averaged 32-35 a game in the late 90s Finals series.
He still averaged 32-35 a game in the late 90s Finals series.
Posted on 6/14/17 at 10:41 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
He was always the favorite because of who he was and what he did. If Lebron were that player he wouldn't always be the underdog.
Well this isn't tautological at all.
Try explaining why MJ was favored in all of his Finals without saying "because he was MJ." That statement doesn't impart any additional information into the conversation.
Posted on 6/14/17 at 10:46 pm to Goldrush25
quote:
Try explaining why MJ was favored in all of his Finals without saying "because he was MJ."
What more needs to be said? He was the greatest player ever. The greatest off the dribble offensive player ever, a top-10 all-time perimeter defender and he routinely averaged 35-45 PPG in individual playoff series. Because of that, his teams were usually favored.
Now sure, he had Pippen. But the first three peat was essentially Michael/Scottie/Horace Grant and a bunch of guys. Lebron James had more overall talent around him both in Miami and in this version of Cleveland.
Can anyone here FATHOM Jordan losing to the 2011 Mavs?
This post was edited on 6/14/17 at 10:47 pm
Posted on 6/14/17 at 10:48 pm to shel311
quote:
Right. It's an opinion that you point and laugh at the person who would dare say they can make the argument that Harden is better than MJ.
Wrong. I point and laugh at someone who says they can prove it. You can make any argument you want. You can have any opinion you want. You could probably find stats to argue Harden > MJ if you wanted to. No one has that opinion though (besides maybe Boom
) so they don't. Stats are not the end all be all is all I've been saying. I don't really know how you can disagree with that but that's just my opinion.
This post was edited on 6/14/17 at 10:51 pm
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