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1
Posted on 7/13/12 at 8:33 am to Duke
quote:
They are punished for doing things to gain a competetive advantage. This is something the justice system needs to deal with, not the NCAA.
So you don't think this was covered up to maintain keep the football program competitive?
Posted on 7/13/12 at 8:34 am to Duke
quote:
I used to think alot of Joe Pa, and it makes me sick and angry to see what he really was
Same here. Next to OM and Alabama, they were my favorite college team. I loved JoePa and thought he was a great standup guy. I even said to my good friend two months before the scandal came out that I hoped he won the Rose Bowl that year and died of a heart attack right after they won it, knowing that was likely the way he wanted to go.
I was in some denial as well when I heard of it, but my disbelief quickly turned to raise once I saw the evidence was overwhelming. This is what I think the Penn State fans should have followed suit on. Granted, being an Ole Miss fan, I have little history of being really loyal to the leaders of this university to where I may not be capable of understanding that loyalty.
quote:
It doesn't make Ralph's point any less valid though, just because that frickstick Joe Pa was using the same point to cover his arse.
Still, I think any rational response should be shame and that they deserve some sort of probation for something so horrid, not taking up for JoePa. I don't think I could continue being a part of my fanbase if we pulled something like this. My best friend in China is a Penn State Alum and now he said he won't even remotely associate with them and is incredibly ashamed. That should be most of their reactions, not an instant defense of JoePa.
This post was edited on 7/13/12 at 8:36 am
Posted on 7/13/12 at 8:35 am to LNCHBOX
quote:
So you don't think this was covered up to maintain keep the football program competitive?
I think it was covered up to protect some people's legacies. The football program just happened to be the legacy they were protecting. Thinking this was about keeping the football program afloat is missing how sinister this really is. It's about Joe Pa's ego.
It still didn't give them a competetive advantage. They could have let the story out, done the right thing and the football program gets no punishment. Instead, Joe Pa didn't want it known he had a pederast as a DC for years and wanted to keep it quiet.
Posted on 7/13/12 at 8:36 am to LNCHBOX
quote:
The jurisdiction issue has been covered already. This most certainly is an NCAA issue. When you have a football head coach, assistant coach, trainers, rapes occurring at football facilities, and then high up university officials conspiring to cover it all up, I'm not sure there is a more obvious case of lack of institutional control.
The institution failed to control, and actually enabled, a child rapist. Take all your long ramblings and blow them out your arse. You're wrong.
It appears you still don't understand how jurisdiction works, and you also don't understand the function and purpose of the NCAA.
It also seems that you have a tenuous grasp of the English language in general.
Posted on 7/13/12 at 8:40 am to OMLandshark
quote:
Still, I think any rational response should be shame and that they deserve some sort of probation for something so horrid, not taking up for JoePa. I don't think I could continue being a part of my fanbase if we pulled something like this.
I agree with your thoughts here. I couldn't support Ole Miss/LSU/whoever if I found this out either. My loyalties aren't that strong though, so it's not going to shake me to the core like it did a lot of Penn State people. Expecting them to be rational right now is expecting too much.
The students should go about tearing down that statue though...I would be ashamed to see that every day and being irration or not, most Penn State students have to feel the same way.
Posted on 7/13/12 at 8:42 am to bobbyray21
quote:'
It appears you still don't understand how jurisdiction works
NCAA is a membership based institution, which means that every member university is subject to the rules and reg of the NCAA. You can best believe that the NCAA has rules regarding ethical behavior, and you'd be a fool to think this does not fall under such guidelines.
quote:
It also seems that you have a tenuous grasp of the English language in general.
I'd love for you to go into that. Where was my tenuous grasp?
Posted on 7/13/12 at 8:43 am to Duke
quote:
They could have let the story out, done the right thing and the football program gets no punishment.
From the NCAA sure, but do you still think they would recruit as well? Or keep the coaching they had in place?
It all revolves around football.
Posted on 7/13/12 at 8:47 am to Duke
quote:
They are punished for doing things to gain a competetive advantage. This is something the justice system needs to deal with, not the NCAA.
You're partly right, but that is a poor way of phrasing it. A program isn't punished for doing doing things to gain a competitive advantage. Many things can be done to gain a competitive advantage that don't violate the NCAA's rules.
Athletic programs are punished by the NCAA for violating the NCAA's codified rules.*
*It goes without saying that when NCAA rule are violated, they are for the purpose of gaining a competitive advantage.
Posted on 7/13/12 at 8:48 am to LNCHBOX
quote:
NCAA is a membership based institution, which means that every member university is subject to the rules and reg of the NCAA. You can best believe that the NCAA has rules regarding ethical behavior, and you'd be a fool to think this does not fall under such guidelines.
How about you find those guidelines for us, then. Thanks in advance.
Posted on 7/13/12 at 8:48 am to LNCHBOX
quote:
From the NCAA sure, but do you still think they would recruit as well? Or keep the coaching they had in place?
The coaches would have stayed. "We found out what was going on and put a stop to it!" People respect that.
quote:
you still think they would recruit as well?
After a year or two, it would basically be forgotten.
Posted on 7/13/12 at 8:50 am to Duke
quote:
The coaches would have stayed.
Coach Sandusky too?
quote:
After a year or two, it would basically be forgotten.
So for a year or two, they get an advantage by not reporting it...
Posted on 7/13/12 at 8:54 am to bobbyray21
quote:
How about you find those guidelines for us, then. Thanks in advance.
Title:19.01.2 - Exemplary Conduct.
Individuals employed by or associated with member institutions for the administration, the conduct or the coaching of intercollegiate athletics are, in the final analysis, teachers of young people. Their responsibility is an affirmative one, and they must do more than avoid improper conduct or questionable acts. Their own moral values must be so certain and positive that those younger and more pliable will be influenced by a fine example. Much more is expected of them than of the less critically placed citizen.
ETA: You're welcome.
This post was edited on 7/13/12 at 8:55 am
Posted on 7/13/12 at 8:56 am to bobbyray21
2.4 THE PRINCIPLE OF SPORTSMANSHIP AND ETHICAL CONDUCT [*]
"For intercollegiate athletics to promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of higher education and to promote civility in society, student-athletes, coaches, and all others associated with these athletics programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility, honesty and responsibility. These values should be manifest not only in athletics participation, but also in the broad spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program."
ETA: Or
10:1 Unethical Conduct
Unethical conduct by a prospective or enrolled student-athlete or a current or former institutional staff member, which includes any individual who performs work for the institution or the athletics department even if he or she does not receive compensation for such work, may include, but is not limited to, the following:
(d) Knowingly furnishing or knowingly influencing others to furnish the NCAA or the individual’s institution false or misleading information concerning an individual’s involvement in or knowledge of matters relevant
to a possible violation of an NCAA regulation;
"For intercollegiate athletics to promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of higher education and to promote civility in society, student-athletes, coaches, and all others associated with these athletics programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility, honesty and responsibility. These values should be manifest not only in athletics participation, but also in the broad spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program."
ETA: Or
10:1 Unethical Conduct
Unethical conduct by a prospective or enrolled student-athlete or a current or former institutional staff member, which includes any individual who performs work for the institution or the athletics department even if he or she does not receive compensation for such work, may include, but is not limited to, the following:
(d) Knowingly furnishing or knowingly influencing others to furnish the NCAA or the individual’s institution false or misleading information concerning an individual’s involvement in or knowledge of matters relevant
to a possible violation of an NCAA regulation;
This post was edited on 7/13/12 at 8:58 am
Posted on 7/13/12 at 8:56 am to LNCHBOX
quote:
Coach Sandusky too?
Yes! We have a child molester DC. We're going to keep him around, because he promised not to do it again.
No, his arse would be arrested. If this is just about football, you cut ties with him as soon as you find out something of that magnitude.
quote:
So for a year or two, they get an advantage by not reporting it...
Maybe, but that's all speculation. It's not why Penn State covered this up. It's about personal legacies. Trying to tie this to being all about football is missing the true evil at play here.
Plus, maybe keep a couple of recruits you wouldn't get for a year or two isn't exactly death penalty worthy. This isn't what the NCAA does, they deal with money changing hands and academic fraud. Let the courts deal with it.
Posted on 7/13/12 at 8:59 am to Duke
quote:
Yes! We have a child molester DC. We're going to keep him around, because he promised not to do it again.
The point is going straight over your head. They were able to keep him as a coach by covering this up. I'm fairly certain they thought he was a good DC that would keep them competitive.
Add those two thoughts up and it becomes a competitive advantage to cover up the child rape.
Posted on 7/13/12 at 9:01 am to Duke
quote:
This isn't what the NCAA does
Care to read the NCAA bylaw I posted?
Here it is again...
Title:19.01.2 - Exemplary Conduct.
Individuals employed by or associated with member institutions for the administration, the conduct or the coaching of intercollegiate athletics are, in the final analysis, teachers of young people. Their responsibility is an affirmative one, and they must do more than avoid improper conduct or questionable acts. Their own moral values must be so certain and positive that those younger and more pliable will be influenced by a fine example. Much more is expected of them than of the less critically placed citizen.
quote:
Let the courts deal with it.
It doesn't have to be one or the other.
Posted on 7/13/12 at 9:04 am to LNCHBOX
quote:
The point is going straight over your head. They were able to keep him as a coach by covering this up. I'm fairly certain they thought he was a good DC that would keep them competitive.
They got rid of him in 1999 as DC. This is right as the first alligations are coming to light to PSU. They didn't keep him anyway...so it "went over my head" because the point had no basis in the reality of the case. I didn't know I needed to look up into fantasy land.
quote:
Add those two thoughts up and it becomes a competitive advantage to cover up the child rape.
Except I'm adding stuff that didn't actually happen nor was speculated to happen. I guess if that's the story you've got a point. Since it isn't, I don't really understand what you want me to add.
Posted on 7/13/12 at 9:07 am to LNCHBOX
quote:
Title:19.01.2 - Exemplary Conduct.
Individuals employed by or associated with member institutions for the administration, the conduct or the coaching of intercollegiate athletics are, in the final analysis, teachers of young people. Their responsibility is an affirmative one, and they must do more than avoid improper conduct or questionable acts. Their own moral values must be so certain and positive that those younger and more pliable will be influenced by a fine example. Much more is expected of them than of the less critically placed citizen.
to my linear thinking military mind, this is:
a- gives the NCAA access
b- grounds for the death penalty because of the coverup...watergate is a good example of the coverup making things a lot worse...if nixon had gotten together with congressional leaders and said "yes it happened and it won't happen again..." that would have been the end of it...or in more modern terms, if bill clinton had said, "so what, i found a jewish girl who gave head and it was good..." hell most men in this country would have said, "you go, bill..."
Posted on 7/13/12 at 9:19 am to TheNotoriousGOP
Both CNN & ESPN quoted NCAA legal experts, both former employees of the NCAA & current employees, no names for the current ones, as saying there are no NCAA violations. FWIW to those who are tired of the pages & pages here of arguing the same points over & over again.
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