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re: ESPN Top 74 NBA players of all time- Updated
Posted on 5/13/20 at 2:20 pm to southdowns84
Posted on 5/13/20 at 2:20 pm to southdowns84
They put Tim Duncan at #8 ahead of Kobe & Shaq
2
Posted on 5/13/20 at 2:23 pm to The Pirate King
The spurs org has looked like a lost puppy since Timmy retired. Timmy is someone who you could really tell his impact once he left. Timmy is good where he is ranked imo.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 2:26 pm to Boomshockalocka
Top ten single season VORP of all time:
1. Jordan - 12.47
2. Lebron - 11.79
3. Jordan - 11.42
4. Robinson - 11.36
5. Jordan - 10.77
6. Jordan - 10.61
7. Jordan - 10.58
8. Lebron - 10.34
9. Erving - 10.30
10. Jordan - 10.24
This metric should really never be used to argue in favor of Lebron vs MJ.
Full disclosure though, I'm not a fan of using VORP often because it's a cumulative measure that's easily misunderstood, especially when trying to extrapolate it over multiple periods.
1. Jordan - 12.47
2. Lebron - 11.79
3. Jordan - 11.42
4. Robinson - 11.36
5. Jordan - 10.77
6. Jordan - 10.61
7. Jordan - 10.58
8. Lebron - 10.34
9. Erving - 10.30
10. Jordan - 10.24
This metric should really never be used to argue in favor of Lebron vs MJ.
Full disclosure though, I'm not a fan of using VORP often because it's a cumulative measure that's easily misunderstood, especially when trying to extrapolate it over multiple periods.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 2:26 pm to The Pirate King
quote:
They put Tim Duncan at #8 ahead of Kobe & Shaq
Not weird. In addition to the individual accolades, he won NBA championships in 3 different decades. That's unusual.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 2:30 pm to Rep520
Timmy may be second to Jordan in the intangible impact he had on winning ie setting a culture and getting the best out of his teammates.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 2:42 pm to Boomshockalocka
It's kind of funny you're arguing that there's no comparison and MJ is clearly better when your two big stats show a 0.3 and 0.5 difference.
LeBron has sustained at Hollinger's next PER level (25-30) better than MJ, with 11 seasons at that level vs 7 for MJ.
LeBron has a higher average playoff PER. LeBron's peak playoff PER's are also better than MJ's.
When you claim across the board, you only get there by picking a restricted sample size, ignoring the playoffs and ignoring the advanced stats you don't like.
LeBron has sustained at Hollinger's next PER level (25-30) better than MJ, with 11 seasons at that level vs 7 for MJ.
LeBron has a higher average playoff PER. LeBron's peak playoff PER's are also better than MJ's.
When you claim across the board, you only get there by picking a restricted sample size, ignoring the playoffs and ignoring the advanced stats you don't like.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 2:50 pm to Rep520
so a couple of the metrics are close but they all have Jordan ahead. Consensus is a consensus.
It does not surprise me that Lebron has better playoff numbers, look at the competition he faced compared to what mike faced.
Lebron went to game 7 in rd 1 v the pacers. Mike makes quick work of the lesser teams. Lebron has more games against bad teams, that has huge impacts his playoff averages.
It does not surprise me that Lebron has better playoff numbers, look at the competition he faced compared to what mike faced.
Lebron went to game 7 in rd 1 v the pacers. Mike makes quick work of the lesser teams. Lebron has more games against bad teams, that has huge impacts his playoff averages.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 2:55 pm to Rep520
quote:
Yes. I do believe that one of the first abilities is availability.
One of those years he came back at the very end of the season. You don't think including it is a little disingenuous based on what impact that has on the calculation?
quote:
I counted LeBron's early years when MJ was in college.
I think it's fair to carve those out honestly. That's another reason why I hate this metric. You really have to exclude any outliers as best as possible otherwise you end up in a situation where you're arguing about a bunch of nonsense.
In this instance, you've included the following four years of MJ's career for the purpose of calculating his average VORP:
1. Broken foot year - 18 games - VORP: 1.3
2. Return to Bulls midyear - 17 games - VORP: 1.1
3. 1st season with Wizards - 60 games - VORP: 2.7
4. 2nd season with Wizards - 80 games - VORP: 2.8
Doing so gives Jordan an average VORP of 7.74. And that number is complete bullshite.
In his other 11 seasons, Jordan's VORP exceeded that 7.74 average in every year besides two - his rookie year and his final season with the Bulls.
ETA: Jordan's VORP was 7.4 his rookie year and 7.1 his final season with the Bulls. His career average VORP excluding the obvious outliers above is 9.84.
9.84 would be the 5th highest VORP of Lebron's career.
This post was edited on 5/13/20 at 3:18 pm
Posted on 5/13/20 at 2:59 pm to Rep520
quote:
Not weird. In addition to the individual accolades, he won NBA championships in 3 different decades. That's unusual.
Him above Kobe is a joke.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 3:03 pm to Rep520
Posted on 5/13/20 at 3:10 pm to Boomshockalocka
quote:
It does not surprise me that Lebron has better playoff numbers, look at the competition he faced compared to what mike faced.
Michael Jordan isn't James Harden, he doesn't need excuses like that.
MJ got defended by Bryon Russell, Hersey Hawkins (Payton the last 3 games), Dan Majerle, Clyde Drexler and an injured Byron Scott in his Finals appearances.
LeBron faced Kawhi twice, Iggy/Draymond four times, Bowen, Sefalosha and Marion. Those are four all defensive players in 7 Finals.
MJ, Payton and Majerle were the only all defensive teamers and that was 2 Finals series.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 3:12 pm to Rep520
You are cherry picking finals and ignoring the cake walks he had to get to the finals for 9 years.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 3:14 pm to southdowns84
quote:
I think it's fair to carve those out honestly. You really have to exclude any outliers as best as possible otherwise you end up in a situation where you're arguing about a bunch of nonsense.
See, I don't mind that, but when I noted that MJ and LeBron were close enough in career PER that if you excluded LeBron's first year(s), he had a better career PER, I got criticism for it.
I have no issue with dismissing the outliers, most obviously LeBron's first two years and MJ's Wiz years.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 3:20 pm to Boomshockalocka
quote:
You are cherry picking finals and ignoring the cake walks he had to get to the finals for 9 years.
He faced 4x all defensive team member Paul George in 2 ECF. The first trip was all defensive member Tayshaun Prince.
I'm too bored by this to continue looking people up because those guys alone match the # of series with all defensive players in the ECF (3 series) MJ saw.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 3:20 pm to Rep520
quote:
See, I don't mind that, but when I noted that MJ and LeBron were close enough in career PER that if you excluded LeBron's first year(s), he had a better career PER, I got criticism for it.
Man, I would've had your back on that one.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 3:24 pm to southdowns84
quote:
Man, I would've had your back on that one.
I've never felt or argued LeBron is clearly better, just that it's close enough to make straightfaced arguments for both and that MJ is the presumptive GOAT.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 3:27 pm to Rep520
The pistons and pacers teams mike had to go through were both easily better than the ones that lebron went through. Mike also had to deal w the knicks who is better than damn near any team Lebron has beat in the east. The top end competition in the conference was a lot tougher when mike played than when lebron played. that is why 9 straight finals is not nearly as impressive as mike 6 for 6.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 3:31 pm to Rep520
quote:
I've never felt or argued LeBron is clearly better, just that it's close enough to make straightfaced arguments for both and that MJ is the presumptive GOAT.
And you're right about that.
I'd have no problem if told me Lebron was the GOAT just based on what you've put forward in this thread. I'd think you were wrong, but there's enough in there to justify having that opinion.
ETA: I'll also listen to someone making an argument for Kareem as well.
This post was edited on 5/13/20 at 3:33 pm
Posted on 5/13/20 at 3:32 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:100%
This is not sour grapes at all, I think he is a really great player.
but 45th ALL TIME? That is absurd. Objectively.
At this point nothing separates him from Spencer Haywood.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 3:33 pm to southdowns84
quote:
I'd have no problem if told me Lebron was the GOAT just based on what you've put forward in this thread. I'd think you were wrong, but there's enough in there to justify having that opinion.
I can totally respect that.
See, I actually like both LeBron and MJ and am happy I got to see the two best ever to do it at their peak. I'll discuss this, but ultimately, on a personal level, I would prefer to wait until LeBron hangs it up to actually express an opinion.
If LeBron pulled off a championship this year with a great playoffs, I would be foolish not to care, even if I still gave an ultinate nod to MJ.
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