View in: Desktop
Copyright @2024 TigerDroppings.com. All rights reserved.
- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Posted by
Message
re: Do the Braves have the best farm in the league?Posted by UKWildcats on 8/14/22 at 9:24 pm to tunechi
Cincinnati has a filthy farm system now.
re: Do the Braves have the best farm in the league?Posted by Metaloctopus on 8/15/22 at 4:35 am to Clicker
If you're talking about prospect rankings and who's in the system currently, the Braves are not the best in the league. If you're talking about the best farm systems over the course of the last decade, and who has produced the best major league talent, and whose players have succeeded at the major league level, I can't think of anyone better than the Braves.
They had by far the best collection of prospects a couple of years ago, but they are almost all in the majors now, either in Atlanta, or elsewhere. And the Braves are starting to build the prospect pool back up. Spencer Strider never got any real love from the prospect rankings, because he showed up as a 4th rounder, and went from Low-A all the way to the majors in his first professional season. Scouts didn't know what to think of him or what he was doing (there were a lot of excuses about him supposedly just blowing fastballs by bad hitters, but he kept kept doing it at every level) and now he's the front runner for rookie of the year. People barely knew anything about Michael Harris when the Braves drafted him, and now look at him.
So yeah, the answer to your question depends on whether you value rankings or actual results.
They had by far the best collection of prospects a couple of years ago, but they are almost all in the majors now, either in Atlanta, or elsewhere. And the Braves are starting to build the prospect pool back up. Spencer Strider never got any real love from the prospect rankings, because he showed up as a 4th rounder, and went from Low-A all the way to the majors in his first professional season. Scouts didn't know what to think of him or what he was doing (there were a lot of excuses about him supposedly just blowing fastballs by bad hitters, but he kept kept doing it at every level) and now he's the front runner for rookie of the year. People barely knew anything about Michael Harris when the Braves drafted him, and now look at him.
So yeah, the answer to your question depends on whether you value rankings or actual results.
This post was edited on 8/15 at 4:40 am
re: Do the Braves have the best farm in the league?Posted by mizzoubuckeyeiowa on 8/15/22 at 6:03 am to Clicker
Use to be the Dodgers forever...don't know now.
re: Do the Braves have the best farm in the league?Posted by SeeeeK on 8/15/22 at 6:14 am to WestCoastAg
quote:
there are multiple organizations in baseball who have been doing this for a long time
And have done it with out tanking, like Braves and Stros did.
re: Do the Braves have the best farm in the league?Posted by RD Dawg on 8/15/22 at 7:18 am to Metaloctopus
quote:
So yeah, the answer to your question depends on whether you value rankings or actual results
Which are the only thing that matters.
re: Do the Braves have the best farm in the league?Posted by Metaloctopus on 8/15/22 at 8:11 am to RD Dawg
quote:
Which are the only thing that matters.
That's what I think but, of course, someone will manage to find fault with a perfectly logical point of view.
re: Do the Braves have the best farm in the league?Posted by TrussvilleTide on 8/15/22 at 8:20 am to RD Dawg
quote:
So yeah, the answer to your question depends on whether you value rankings or actual results
Which are the only thing that matters.
I don't think thats a good way to frame the discussion. Current ranking isn't based on past production, its based on the players in the system today.
The rankings have been generally high on the players the Braves have had come up and produce. Our farm system was ranked highly because we had so many of those players. Now we don't have a single top 100 prospect in the minors with Grissom's promotion (though he still counts toward our current ranking) so our system is ranked really low.
We haven't really just called up nobodies and had them produce like the Cards always seem to do, at least not yet. Over the next few seasons is when we will find out if we are capable of doing that. This is what people in this thread seem to be implying the Braves are doing, and its just not the case. Strider, Grissom, Harris, Riley, Swanson, Acuna, and Ozzie were all very highly ranked prospects.
I the real argument you could have would be: did the Braves develop these guys into top prospects, or did they scout them and those guys were always those guys? TBH it sounds like Chipper consulting with guys like Dansby and Riley did more for their development that anyone coaching them in our minor league system ever did.
That said, my opinion on it is that we've probably tapped out the studs from our system for a year or two for the most part, but it will eventually be evident that our system is still at least a middle of the road farm and not at the very bottom of the pile.
re: Do the Braves have the best farm in the league?Posted by Metaloctopus on 8/15/22 at 8:21 am to SeeeeK
quote:
And have done it with out tanking, like Braves and Stros did.
The Braves didn't tank. Tanking is losing for a long time, to acquire high draft picks. That doesn't work in baseball. There are too many positions to fill, and predicting how amateurs will translate to the pro game is harder in baseball than in any other sport, I would say.
The Braves traded guys who were aging, over priced, who didn't fit into long term plans, and acquired prospects to kick start a rebuild. From there, they scouted and drafted better than any other organization over the course of that rebuild. Ronald Acuna and Ozzie Albies were international signees, not draft picks. You don't build a championship roster by just losing for years. The Royals lost for about 30 years before winning a title. You think the championship maybe had something to do with evaluation and development in the recent years leading up to it? Or was it just a brilliant 30 year tank plan?
re: Do the Braves have the best farm in the league?Posted by RD Dawg on 8/15/22 at 8:25 am to TrussvilleTide
quote:
don't think thats a good way to frame the discussion
It's the only way to frame the discussion.
What's the point of highly rated prospects if you don't get results on the big league level?
re: Do the Braves have the best farm in the league?Posted by TrussvilleTide on 8/15/22 at 8:31 am to RD Dawg
quote:
It's the only way to frame the discussion.
What's the point of highly rated prospects if you don't get results on the big league level?
Did you not read this?
quote:
Current ranking isn't based on past production, its based on the players in the system today.
Argue that we are the best at player development all you want, if we aren't at the top we are up there with the Dodgers and Astros. That doesn't mean our current farm system is the best in baseball, because its not.
Though I could also argue that its hard to say we have the best farm system in terms of development since we have no players currently in the minors in the top 100 player rankings when the Dodgers constantly have guys there despite tapping into their system for trades or help for the big league club every single year. If we were developing guys on the same level we would have at least one or two left, right?
This post was edited on 8/15 at 8:32 am
TD SponsorTD Fan
USA
Member since 2001
USA
Member since 2001
Thank you for supporting our sponsors Posted by Site Sponsor to Everyone
Advertisement
re: Do the Braves have the best farm in the league?Posted by Metaloctopus on 8/15/22 at 8:39 am to TrussvilleTide
quote:
We haven't really just called up nobodies and had them produce like the Cards always seem to do, at least not yet. Over the next few seasons is when we will find out if we are capable of doing that. This is what people in this thread seem to be implying the Braves are doing, and its just not the case. Strider, Grissom, Harris, Riley, Swanson, Acuna, and Ozzie were all very highly ranked prospects.
So you're saying that it's more important to have "nobodies" produce, than to have a collection of "somebodies" produce? If that isn't your point, then there is no point.
And who decides whether a prospect is a nobody or a somebody? You list these players that you say were highly regarded: Harris was a 3rd rounder who most scouts thought was a pitching prospect. Riley was thought by almost every other organization as a pitching prospect. Grissom was an 11th round pick. If anyone thought he was anywhere near this good. do you think he would have gone that low? But you've decided that he's a "somebody" because now you know he's good. Same thing with Harris. And Strider? a 4th round pick who had barely pitched in college, and many thought was a reach. He was a "nobody" to a lot of people. Now you know he's good, and suddenly he's a "somebody".
What about William Contreras? There weren't big expectations on him when he entered the organization.
Our talent pool in the minors, the top talent, has mostly graduated. Others have been traded away. So, as I said before, if it's just about current rankings, the Braves aren't at the top. But if we're ranking minor league systems in the sense of organizational efficiency, I'd put the Braves up there with anybody. The sanctions hurt their depth somewhat, but it's building back.
This post was edited on 8/15 at 8:42 am
re: Do the Braves have the best farm in the league?Posted by TrussvilleTide on 8/15/22 at 8:50 am to Metaloctopus
quote:
ut you've decided that he's a "somebody" because now you know he's good.
Hes a "somebody" when talking about minor league prospects because he turned into a top ranked prospect.
quote:
So you're saying that it's more important to have "nobodies" produce, than to have a collection of "somebodies" produce?
It doesn't really matter where you get your production, but if you're constantly bringing up guys who the prospect evaluators aren't "in" on and they end up producing, it probably points to your organization being on another level from a scouting/analytics/development standpoint.
quote:
And who decides whether a prospect is a nobody or a somebody? You list these players that you say were highly regarded: Harris was a 3rd rounder who most scouts thought was a pitching prospect. Riley was thought by almost every other organization as a pitching prospect. Grissom was an 11th round pick. If anyone thought he was anywhere near this good. do you think he would have gone that low? But you've decided that he's a "somebody" because now you know he's good. Same thing with Harris. And Strider? a 4th round pick who had barely pitched in college, and many thought was a reach. He was a "nobody" to a lot of people. Now you know he's good, and suddenly he's a "somebody".
You do know every system has guys come from late round picks in the draft that end up turning into MLB guys, right? That's why your point about tanking not working in MLB is correct, even the first round is a crapshoot at best outside of maybe the top guy or two. The Braves get credit for being right about those guys for sure, but its also not completely unheard of to get people in the 4th round that end up becoming something.
quote:
Our talent pool in the minors, the top talent, has mostly graduated. Others have been traded away. So, as I said before, if it's just about current rankings, the Braves aren't at the top. But if we're ranking minor league systems in the sense of organizational efficiency, I'd put the Braves up there with anybody. The sanctions hurt their depth somewhat, but it's building back.
Which is what I said. Our current pool of players isn't ranked high, and probably shouldn't be. But I think we look back and see it was closer to a middle of the road player pool than at the bottom where the evaluators have it at.
re: Do the Braves have the best farm in the league?Posted by Metaloctopus on 8/15/22 at 9:22 am to TrussvilleTide
quote:
Hes a "somebody" when talking about minor league prospects because he turned into a top ranked prospect.
That's precisely my point, which is counter to your point that the Braves just graduate guys who were already highly thought of. You can't say "he became a top prospect" and simultaneously claim that he wasn't evaluated and developed correctly by the Braves.
quote:
It doesn't really matter where you get your production, but if you're constantly bringing up guys who the prospect evaluators aren't "in" on and they end up producing, it probably points to your organization being on another level from a scouting/analytics/development standpoint.
And as I noted, the Braves have done plenty of that, getting star production out of two guys that other organizations didn't even want as hitters (Riley and Harris), getting Strider, Grissom, Contreras, and even Acuna and Albies weren't all that highly regarded. I don't remember their exact rankings in the international market, but I do remember they signed very modest signing bonuses compared to the top guys on the market. Acuna got 100k. Clearly, other teams weren't expecting those two to be stars.
But the biggest thing to note is that, regardless of how highly or not so highly prospects are thought of, it is very difficult to get players to the majors. Every team drafts/signs guys who are highly thought of going into the draft/international signing period. But if you don't develop those guys, they drop off the prospect radar. Having a high percentage of your players reach the majors, relative to the rest of the league, is a sign of a well run organization.
This post was edited on 8/15 at 9:28 am
re: Do the Braves have the best farm in the league?Posted by Metaloctopus on 8/15/22 at 9:26 am to TrussvilleTide
quote:
You do know every system has guys come from late round picks in the draft that end up turning into MLB guys, right? That's why your point about tanking not working in MLB is correct, even the first round is a crapshoot at best outside of maybe the top guy or two. The Braves get credit for being right about those guys for sure, but its also not completely unheard of to get people in the 4th round that end up becoming something.
Yes, I know this. But the Braves do it a lot, despite your belief to the contrary.
re: Do the Braves have the best farm in the league?Posted by TrussvilleTide on 8/15/22 at 9:34 am to Metaloctopus
quote:
Yes, I know this. But the Braves do it a lot, despite your belief to the contrary.
Show me where I said the Braves don't do this?
Please, show me. I'm waiting.
re: Do the Braves have the best farm in the league?Posted by TrussvilleTide on 8/15/22 at 9:35 am to Metaloctopus
quote:
But the biggest thing to note is that, regardless of how highly or not so highly prospects are thought of, it is very difficult to get players to the majors. Every team drafts/signs guys who are highly thought of going into the draft/international signing period. But if you don't develop those guys, they drop off the prospect radar. Having a high percentage of your players reach the majors, relative to the rest of the league, is a sign of a well run organization.
The argument isn't "are they a well run organization", its "are they the best". See thread title for more info.
re: Do the Braves have the best farm in the league?Posted by TrussvilleTide on 8/15/22 at 9:45 am to Metaloctopus
quote:
Hes a "somebody" when talking about minor league prospects because he turned into a top ranked prospect.
That's precisely my point, which is counter to your point that the Braves just graduate guys who were already highly thought of. You can't say "he became a top prospect" and simultaneously claim that he wasn't evaluated and developed correctly by the Braves.
You're missing the mark here. The vast majority of prospects don't enter the top 100 as soon as they are drafted. Almost all of the top 100 are guys that played their way into the top 100 once they were in the minors.
There are hundreds if not thousands of draft eligible players in a given year, so you might be only one of 2 or 3 teams that even gets eyeballs on a guy (like we were for Acuna and Ozzie). So you might only be actually competing with 3 or so teams for a guy, and if they had a bad day when the other teams came to see him you might not have any competition at all to sign him.
Thats why I'm making a point about guys who are highly touted. Maybe some of them were developed by the Braves, maybe we were just one of the only teams who scouted them and they were always these guys, maybe a lot of teams wanted him but we were willing to take them earlier. We can't really know for sure either way.
What IS a sign of teams seeing something others aren't is consistently bringing guys up that are outside the purview of the prospect-heads, and still getting production out of them regardless. Its not that what the Braves are doing isn't impressive, or that its bad. Its just that if you have an organization consistently doing this (the Cards are the best example IMO) it shows that they do have some kind of development, scouting, or analytical advantage at the farm level. Its not about what the Braves AREN'T doing, its what St Louis IS doing. When a player is already in the minors is really when you start getting reports on who they really are, at least by the consensus definition of what projects to be a good player.
And the Braves have a chance with the farm in the state its in to prove that they are better than the consensus at doing what I described. We just haven't had to all that much because our guys have almost all ended up being highly ranked prospects either by their own merit or the merit of Braves development.
This post was edited on 8/15 at 9:48 am
re: Do the Braves have the best farm in the league?Posted by Metaloctopus on 8/15/22 at 9:50 am to TrussvilleTide
quote:
Show me where I said the Braves don't do this?
Please, show me. I'm waiting.
"We haven't really just called up nobodies and had them produce like the Cards always seem to do, at least not yet. Over the next few seasons is when we will find out if we are capable of doing that. This is what people in this thread seem to be implying the Braves are doing, and its just not the case. Strider, Grissom, Harris, Riley, Swanson, Acuna, and Ozzie were all very highly ranked prospects."
Are you going to do some verbal gymnastics to differentiate "nobodies" from late round guys? Are there different categories of nobodies?
This post was edited on 8/15 at 10:07 am
re: Do the Braves have the best farm in the league?Posted by Metaloctopus on 8/15/22 at 9:54 am to TrussvilleTide
quote:
The argument isn't "are they a well run organization", its "are they the best". See thread title for more info.
And I already said that if we're going by prospects rankings, were aren't currently at the top. I clearly qualified, on multiple occasions, that IF we're talking about best runs systems, I put us up at the top with anyone. I'm not using that as an argument to say we have the most "talent" in the minors, right this second. You seem unwilling to pay attention to what I'm saying, even though I immediately qualified everything I said right from the beginning.
re: Do the Braves have the best farm in the league?Posted by TrussvilleTide on 8/15/22 at 10:05 am to Metaloctopus
quote:
We haven't really just called up nobodies and had them produce like the Cards always seem to do, at least not yet. Over the next few seasons is when we will find out if we are capable of doing that. This is what people in this thread seem to be implying the Braves are doing, and its just not the case. Strider, Grissom, Harris, Riley, Swanson, Acuna, and Ozzie were all very highly ranked prospects.
Are you going to do some verbal gymnastics to differentiate "nobodies" from late round guys? Are there different categories of nobodies?
What exactly does the draft have to do with how players are perceived by the time they are called up?
Not even Contreras was coming in completely off the radar by the time he got promoted, but he exceeded expectations for sure.
Brendan Donovan for example: Drafted in 2018. Didn't even make the cards TOP 30 until spring of last year. He was the 17th Ranked prospect in their system by the end of the year. Now hes not a superstar or anything, but hes pretty damn good. Overall prospect grade: 40. The number 100 prospect in baseball for this year has a 55 grade.
This post was edited on 8/15 at 10:06 am
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News