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re: Discussions about MVP Awards (In General)
Posted on 5/6/13 at 11:57 am to JohnnyKilroy
Posted on 5/6/13 at 11:57 am to JohnnyKilroy
quote:
Both of those are insane numbers. CP3 just put up the 18th best WS/48 season ever. Durant was 16th. And LeBron's was 5th. A great season full of great performances.
agreed
Do you have a link to this list?
2
Posted on 5/6/13 at 11:57 am to bobbyray21
One thing that worried me about WS/48, didn't birdman have the highest or top 5 highest WS/48 since joining the Heat?
Posted on 5/6/13 at 11:58 am to jturn17
quote:
Edit: But it was Melo that gets the other first place vote. :(
Yea that was an absolute garbage vote any way you slice it imo.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 11:59 am to bobbyray21
quote:
Do you have a link to this list?
Found it:
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* .3399 1971-72 MIL
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* .3256 1970-71 MIL
3. Wilt Chamberlain* .3251 1963-64 SFW
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* .3225 1972-73 MIL
5. LeBron James .3220 2012-13 MIA
6. Michael Jordan* .3211 1990-91 CHI
7. LeBron James .3183 2008-09 CLE
8. Michael Jordan* .3174 1995-96 CHI
9. Michael Jordan* .3077 1987-88 CHI
10. LeBron James .2987 2009-10 CLE
11. LeBron James .2983 2011-12 MIA
12. David Robinson* .2960 1993-94 SAS
13. Chris Paul .2925 2008-09 NOH
14. Michael Jordan* .2920 1988-89 CHI
15. Kevin Durant .2910 2012-13 OKC
16. David Robinson* .2903 1995-96 SAS
17. Chris Paul .2868 2012-13 LAC
18. Wilt Chamberlain* .2857 1961-62 PHW
19. Michael Jordan* .2851 1989-90 CHI
20. Wilt Chamberlain* .2851 1966-67 PHI
Posted on 5/6/13 at 12:00 pm to bobbyray21
quote:But of course. LINK
Do you have a link to this list?
For PER, it was LeBron 7th, Durant 45th, Paul 103rd. Per really loves scorers though which hurts CP3. WS/48 loves efficiency more I think.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 12:03 pm to jturn17
quote:
For PER, it was LeBron 7th, Durant 45th, Paul 103rd. Per really loves scorers though which hurts CP3. WS/48 loves efficiency more I think.
Basically, you can't invent a statistical formulation that doesn't result in Lebron James being one of the greatest players of all time.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 12:03 pm to shel311
quote:No. His ws/48 is like .200, which is REALLY good. But it's a measure of productivity/efficiency in its truest since (at least in my opinion). Players like Faried, Andersen, who we know are very valuable measure, higher on WS/48 than PER, where they measure slightly above average.
One thing that worried me about WS/48, didn't birdman have the highest or top 5 highest WS/48 since joining the Heat?
This post was edited on 5/6/13 at 12:04 pm
Posted on 5/6/13 at 12:06 pm to bobbyray21
quote:It's probably impossible. Adjusted +/- loves him. Wins Produced loves him. It's why so many stats geeks drift towards LeBron so easily, and have for quite some time.
Basically, you can't invent a statistical formulation that doesn't result in Lebron James being one of the greatest players of all time.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 12:07 pm to jturn17
quote:Not sure I follow.
No. His ws/48 is like .200, which is REALLY good. But it's a measure of productivity/efficiency in its truest since (at least in my opinion).
It's .207, which if you bump it up against the season leaders, puts him 4th, tied with TC, right?
And that's a roughly 40 or so game sample size, almost half a season.
Again, I could be wrong, but that should seem to raise some questions about this metric, if I understand it correctly.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 12:07 pm to jturn17
quote:
It's probably impossible. Adjusted +/- loves him. Wins Produced loves him. It's why so many stats geeks drift towards LeBron so easily, and have for quite some time.
...PER loves him.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 12:09 pm to shel311
quote:
Not sure I follow.
It's .207, which if you bump it up against the season leaders, puts him 4th, tied with TC, right?
And that's a roughly 40 or so game sample size, almost half a season.
Again, I could be wrong, but that should seem to raise some questions about this metric, if I understand it correctly.
If his WS/48 is .207, how come he isn't on this list?
Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1. LeBron James-MIA .322
2. Kevin Durant-OKC .291
3. Chris Paul-LAC .287
4. Tyson Chandler-NYK .207
5. Tony Parker-SAS .206
6. James Harden-HOU .206
7. Marc Gasol-MEM .197
8. Tiago Splitter-SAS .197
9. Blake Griffin-LAC .196
10. Russell Westbrook-OKC .195
11. Dwyane Wade-MIA .192
12. Tim Duncan-SAS .191
13. Brook Lopez-BRK .191
14. Carmelo Anthony-NYK .184
15. Deron Williams-BRK .184
16. Serge Ibaka-OKC .181
17. Stephen Curry-GSW .180
18. David West-IND .179
19. George Hill-IND .177
20. Chris Bosh-MIA .175
Posted on 5/6/13 at 12:10 pm to bobbyray21
quote:Probably a minimum on games played or minutes needed?
If his WS/48 is .207, how come he isn't on this list?
Not sure
.207
Posted on 5/6/13 at 12:12 pm to bobbyray21
quote:Not enough minutes played. Doubt he qualifies.
If his WS/48 is .207, how come he isn't on this list?
quote:You're right. I didn't realize everyone else was so low, but I don't see the problem. It's a measure of productivity. His TS% is like 63. He rebounds at an insane rate. Nobody is claiming he's the 5th best player in the league. Just that he's produced at the 5th best rate in the league that season (of course that doesn't account for other players who don't qualify.) I mean he's not playing enough minutes to actually qualify for the rankings anyway.
Again, I could be wrong, but that should seem to raise some questions about this metric, if I understand it correctly.
But in the same spirit look at PER. PER ranks Marc Gasol (19.5) and Kemba Walker (18.8) as roughly the same player. But WS/48 says Gasol (.197) is 2-2.5x the player Kemba is (.080). Which one seems more accurate?
This post was edited on 5/6/13 at 12:15 pm
Posted on 5/6/13 at 12:15 pm to jturn17
quote:But it's higher than Wade and Bosh, something has to be questionable about that.
You're right. I didn't realize everyone else was so low, but I don't see the problem. It's a measure of productivity. His TS% is like 63. He rebounds at an insane rate. Nobody is claiming he's the 5th best player in the league. Just that he's produced at the 5th best rate in the league that season (of course that doesn't account for other players who don't qualify.) I mean he's not playing enough minutes to actually qualify for the rankings anyway
If it measures efficiency, ok great. But somewhere in there, you have to compare that to the amount of production.
Win shares to me equates how much your production equals to victories. No one, like you said, is going to argue his 14mpg is providing more value to team victories than Wade or Bosh, but this WS/48 says otherwise.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 12:16 pm to shel311
quote:
But it's higher than Wade and Bosh, something has to be questionable about that.
If it measures efficiency, ok great. But somewhere in there, you have to compare that to the amount of production.
Win shares to me equates how much your production equals to victories. No one, like you said, is going to argue his 14mpg is providing more value to team victories than Wade or Bosh, but this WS/48 says otherwise.
There is the question of whether he could sustain that productivity over an entire game.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 12:17 pm to shel311
quote:WS/48 gives you a per minute production. WS gives you context of minutes played. I'm not sure what the issue is to be honest. Both have their use depending on the question you're trying to answer.
If it measures efficiency, ok great. But somewhere in there, you have to compare that to the amount of production.
Win shares to me equates how much your production equals to victories. No one, like you said, is going to argue his 14mpg is providing more value to team victories than Wade or Bosh, but this WS/48 says otherwise.
quote:No way he could. He looks like he has asthma after 5 minutes of play. But again I don't think of this as an issue in the measurement. It's measuring per minute production. If you want a true value with total minute context then WS is what you want.
There is the question of whether he could sustain that productivity over an entire game.
This post was edited on 5/6/13 at 12:20 pm
Posted on 5/6/13 at 12:18 pm to bobbyray21
quote:
There is the question of whether he could sustain that productivity over an entire game.
In other words, if he were playing more than 14 mpg, his WS/48 would likely go down drastically.
Posted on 5/6/13 at 12:21 pm to SlowFlowPro
Lebron is the leagues most valuable player. It's best player.
The dude that voted Melo is an arse hat
The dude that voted Melo is an arse hat
Posted on 5/6/13 at 12:21 pm to WITNESS23
quote:
The dude that voted Melo is an arse hat
What exactly is an arse hat?
Posted on 5/6/13 at 12:23 pm to shel311
quote:BTW, PER has this same issue as a per minute metric. Brandon Wright has a Top 20 PER in the NBA playing only 18 minutes a game. Javale McGee as well.
Win shares to me equates how much your production equals to victories. No one, like you said, is going to argue his 14mpg is providing more value to team victories than Wade or Bosh, but this WS/48 says otherwise.
Edit: BTW, I made an edit to my previous post on WS/48. Not sure if you saw it, Shel.
This post was edited on 5/6/13 at 12:24 pm
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