re: Cards send Miller to braves...get Heyward

quote:

---

Miller's avg FB velo is practically the same over the course of two seasons and change.

---

So that somehow shows inconsistency from game to game?

If the Cardinals dont re-sign him then its an expensive rental.

I dont think that will be the case though. Think Holliday and Edmonds deals.

I think potentially the best player going the other way may be Jenkins.

Especially when our front office said a month ago they are prepared to take on a higher payroll. Heyward isn't leaving STL anytime soon.

quote:

---

My point was that if an elite guy puts up 20 and JH consistently puts up around 15, then he must be pretty good

---

He is really good defensively... offensively he hasn't matched those early years... I mean the last 2 years he has averaged 12.5 home runs which is less than 15. The 27 home run season is looking like an outlier at the moment.

quote:

---

it's an average?

---

You dont say?

quote:

---

show me a pitcher than throws his FB the same exact speed every game over the course of a season. they are all up and down

---

He loses 2-4 mph and his FB gets real "flat". Its happened multiple times last season.

I dont get the angst. Im taking a lot of the criticism of Heyward into consideration tonight. I think there are flaws there we need to hope get corrected. Im not sure why some Braves fans are so defensive about Miller criticisms.

Both teams moved players for various reasons. Maybe the change of scenery will be good for Shelby.

Good luck.

I addressed that point. I was responding to a post about his career #s.

The Braves were 14th in the league in runs scored last year; it wasn't isolated to Heyward. He's drastically changed his stance multiple times in the last couple years hoping to catch lightning. He's batted in what many thought was an obviously improper spot in the lineup. It's far from a guarantee he ever turns into the MVP type candidate the entire Braves fanbase thought he'd be, but I would be more infinitely more willing to shell out $14MM+ for Heyward's current production than the production of a whole lot of others currently making that (& very few players can still match Heyward's upside).

quote:

---

Do you not like OPS as a stat? 38th out of the the entire major leagues given players with a statistically significant sample size is so far from mediocre. I put a whole lot more credence into OPS than any of the individual components of the triple slash that you threw out.

Out of players with 2000 PA since 2010, he ranks 38th in offensive value added, 41st in baserunning value added, 57th in wOBA, & 55th in wRC+

---

Yes I value OPS but as you mentioned, his slugging % has decreased for 3 straight seasons and his OBP has leveled out. He hasn't liven up to his expectations to warrant a long term extension, at a rate which he has not produced yet, which is what it all boils down to. All the fancy stats are better suited for the saber metric crowd. I'm old fashioned... and I care more about actually production... counting stats.

quote:

---

You're expectations are far out of whack if any that equates to mediocre. His offensives numbers have trended downward without a doubt, but if you consider those career #s mediocre then our definitions are mediocre are worlds apart. Those #s don't factor in that those were his 20, 21, 22, 23, & 24 y/o seasons, which is VERY significant when discussing contract $.

---

Naw. I understand he hasn't reached his prime yet and I'm sure there are far better numbers to come. If I was expecting 20/20 every year with strong peripherals on an annual basis, maybe I would agree. We'll just agree to disagree here. If it makes you any happier, if you factor in the defense and base running, he's been an above average baseball player. Offensively, still mediocre.


Just curious... what do you think he's worth right now? What do you think he wants? Would you give it to him if you were the Braves?

quote:

---

Im not sure why some Braves fans are so defensive about Miller criticisms.

---

Because they need hope, that's why. They're staring at the gutter right now clinging to any kind of hope they can find, and that's fine, let them.

For their sake, they better hope this isn't a repeat of the Wainwright trade, just in opposite positions for each team.

Could you imagine? JD Drew fizzles out, Wainwright one of the top aces in the game. Do another trade years later, Heyward becomes a star and reaches potential, Miller fizzles out? Lmfao.

quote:

---

It's just silly how both sides all of sudden bash their former guy

---

There is no "all of a sudden" with Miller issues among Cards fans. Been going on for two years man.

You think you are on to something but you really are not.

It is apparent that Heyward thought more of himself than the Braves did. And guess what, this was the best offer. Imagine how the other clubs viewed him.