- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
Can a player's place among the greats get worse the more he plays?
Posted on 5/16/18 at 9:28 am
Posted on 5/16/18 at 9:28 am
Assuming no scandal or off the field/court stuff, can a player fall in the pantheon of all time greats simply by playing more? Should it?
Brett Favre immediately comes to mind. Kobe too. Do you view them as a lesser player due to the way the twilight of their careers finished? What about Manning? He won a Superbowl, but it was in a season where he was benched for Osweiler.
What about Lebron? Even if he completely gave up, is he any less than where you've got him personally ranked?
I tend to believe a player's all time ranking is basically a high water mark kind of thing. If you're a top 5 player of all time at a given point in your career, I'm not sure you can fall below that due to your on the field performance going forward.
To be fair, I think who has the greatest legacy is different than who is the best player, and your legacy can certainly be tarnished on the field.
Brett Favre immediately comes to mind. Kobe too. Do you view them as a lesser player due to the way the twilight of their careers finished? What about Manning? He won a Superbowl, but it was in a season where he was benched for Osweiler.
What about Lebron? Even if he completely gave up, is he any less than where you've got him personally ranked?
I tend to believe a player's all time ranking is basically a high water mark kind of thing. If you're a top 5 player of all time at a given point in your career, I'm not sure you can fall below that due to your on the field performance going forward.
To be fair, I think who has the greatest legacy is different than who is the best player, and your legacy can certainly be tarnished on the field.
22
Posted on 5/16/18 at 9:33 am to slackster
Apparently so. Have seen many Lebron fans on here use MJ’s Wizards years against him.
Posted on 5/16/18 at 9:35 am to slackster
mehh people will forget about kobe and favres last couple of years as time passes. All everyone ever remembers are the good times, and those outweigh the bad for sure. Everyone knows with age things change. You didnt even mention Jordan, his years in washington... do people ever remember that? No.
Posted on 5/16/18 at 9:35 am to slackster
No, but it does in our conversations for two reasons
(1) A lot of our placement of the player in question is based on extrapolation of existing results. We expect their production to continue in a certain way, and should it drop off more than expected or sooner than expected, we have to adjust our notions of how good the player's legacy was
(2) We tend to be subject to recency bias and more heavily weight our opinions of players on the last things we've seen them do.
(1) A lot of our placement of the player in question is based on extrapolation of existing results. We expect their production to continue in a certain way, and should it drop off more than expected or sooner than expected, we have to adjust our notions of how good the player's legacy was
(2) We tend to be subject to recency bias and more heavily weight our opinions of players on the last things we've seen them do.
This post was edited on 5/16/18 at 9:36 am
Posted on 5/16/18 at 9:39 am to slackster
This is a very thought-provoking question to me.
It’s basically your Larry Bird vs. Kobe argument. Larry retired early because of his bad back. Kobe kept playing. Is it fair to penalize Kobe for not retiring at the age Bird did? I don’t know.
I realize I didn’t answer your question, but I legitimately don’t know the answer.
It’s basically your Larry Bird vs. Kobe argument. Larry retired early because of his bad back. Kobe kept playing. Is it fair to penalize Kobe for not retiring at the age Bird did? I don’t know.
I realize I didn’t answer your question, but I legitimately don’t know the answer.
Posted on 5/16/18 at 9:41 am to jangalang
quote:No you havent
Apparently so. Have seen many Lebron fans on here use MJ’s Wizards years against him.
You are insecure and want us to have a pitty party for you and MJ you little titty baby
Nobody uses the washington years against Jordan in any serious manner
This post was edited on 5/16/18 at 9:42 am
Posted on 5/16/18 at 9:44 am to Dawgsontop34
quote:No
Is it fair to penalize Kobe for not retiring at the age Bird did?
It would take a half functioning retard to do it
Two players, A & B
Player A plays at a certain level for 12 years and retires
Player B plays at the exact same level for 12 years, then plays 5 more at a worse level
In no possible way can A be better
This post was edited on 5/16/18 at 9:44 am
Posted on 5/16/18 at 9:47 am to lsupride87
PTE has a horrible take that Jordan hurt his legacy with the Wizards thing. But, he is probably the only guy on planet earth who feels that way.
For the most part, this is a no. Big deal if a guy plays past his prime. It's worth it for the potential upside in terms of championships. Favre almost got to a Super Bowl and things just happened to fall apart with Kobe in terms of injuries and the franchise's situation. If these guys hung on to be journeyman at 45 to chase the scoring record or something, then I would reconsider.
For the most part, this is a no. Big deal if a guy plays past his prime. It's worth it for the potential upside in terms of championships. Favre almost got to a Super Bowl and things just happened to fall apart with Kobe in terms of injuries and the franchise's situation. If these guys hung on to be journeyman at 45 to chase the scoring record or something, then I would reconsider.
This post was edited on 5/16/18 at 9:48 am
Posted on 5/16/18 at 9:50 am to slackster
If jordan lost to an al horford lead Celtics team, he would not be in discussion for greatest of all time
Posted on 5/16/18 at 9:50 am to slackster
no, bc people will always put too much into # of championships, which is so stupid. Russell was half the player Chamberlain was, but most think he was better.
Posted on 5/16/18 at 9:52 am to rallyTiger
quote:So you are someone that does hold the Washington years against MJ?
If jordan lost to an al horford lead Celtics team, he would not be in discussion for greatest of all time
He didnt even make it to the horford level led teams in the playoffs
Posted on 5/16/18 at 9:52 am to lsupride87
quote:
You are insecure and want us to have a pitty party for you and MJ you little titty baby
I don’t think MJ needs your pity party, and I don’t require it either.
quote:
Nobody uses the washington years against Jordan in any serious manner
Anybody that’s ever used the “MJ couldnt win a playoff series without Pippen” argument was saying just as much.
Posted on 5/16/18 at 9:54 am to lsupride87
Are u seriously bringing up wizards years when talking about jordan?
This post was edited on 5/16/18 at 9:57 am
Posted on 5/16/18 at 9:59 am to slackster
I weigh the end of a great's career less that I would the peak, but you can't pretend it doesn't count at all.
Posted on 5/16/18 at 10:02 am to Bunk Moreland
Usually no.
Generally, you have to do something truly terrible to damage your legacy, once you've reached a certain pinnacle of achievement. Jordan's last years, Kobe's last, Bird's last couple -- they don't make them lesser players-- at worst, they make them intense competitors trying to chase down Father Time for one last taste of glory.
In sports where compiling stats matter a lot, its also a time where grinding out another season for 10PPG can be the difference between being a Top 50 all timer and a Top 40 all timer, people fighting to add to their number based legacy is also more understandable. Pujols isn't going to be thought of as any less for his Angels years, than Mays for being a New York Met or Ruth for being a Boston Brave.
Generally, you have to do something truly terrible to damage your legacy, once you've reached a certain pinnacle of achievement. Jordan's last years, Kobe's last, Bird's last couple -- they don't make them lesser players-- at worst, they make them intense competitors trying to chase down Father Time for one last taste of glory.
In sports where compiling stats matter a lot, its also a time where grinding out another season for 10PPG can be the difference between being a Top 50 all timer and a Top 40 all timer, people fighting to add to their number based legacy is also more understandable. Pujols isn't going to be thought of as any less for his Angels years, than Mays for being a New York Met or Ruth for being a Boston Brave.
Posted on 5/16/18 at 10:02 am to slackster
Honestly, no. Though it is frustrating to watch at the time. The classic example is Willie Mays on the Mets or Johnny Unitas on the Chargers. It's just sad. But it's their life, and you know what? Rage against the dying light. Playing past your prime still adds to your legacy, as simply being able to hold down a job at an advanced age speaks to how good you are.
Guys who retire early usually do so because they weren't good enough to keep playing. Though the guys who retire when they are still awesome (Barry Sanders, Jim Brown, Magic though that's a unique case) make themselves more mythic. A well done mic drop is hard to do, but if you pull it off, it's amazing.
Guys who retire early usually do so because they weren't good enough to keep playing. Though the guys who retire when they are still awesome (Barry Sanders, Jim Brown, Magic though that's a unique case) make themselves more mythic. A well done mic drop is hard to do, but if you pull it off, it's amazing.
Posted on 5/16/18 at 10:12 am to slackster
You have to use some metric or else you get UGA fans who claim to be elite without actually winning something.
Posted on 5/16/18 at 10:13 am to slackster
People forget over time, so no. Examples of forgotten garbage endings:
Emmitt Smith Cardinals
Johnny Unitas Chargers
Willie Mays Mets
Babe Ruth Braves
Emmitt Smith Cardinals
Johnny Unitas Chargers
Willie Mays Mets
Babe Ruth Braves
Posted on 5/16/18 at 10:13 am to slackster
Certainly does on this board. In the Jack vs Tiger debate, all kinds of stats are thrown up in percentages in Tiger's favor. Then again, total stats are thrown up in Jack's favor.
Posted on 5/16/18 at 10:27 am to jangalang
quote:
Have seen many Lebron fans on here use MJ’s Wizards years against him.
Page 1 of 8
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News