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re: Black College Football (HBCU) is Dying
Posted on 12/28/12 at 8:53 am to Sophandros
Posted on 12/28/12 at 8:53 am to Sophandros
quote:
Aeneas Williams went to Fortier, not Aug.
And didn't he not play football at Southern until like his Jr year? I remember hearing something like that.
Also, weren't him and Ashley Ambrose high school teammates?
ETA:
quote:
And HBCU coaches aren't turning away white kids, as another poster implied. Rather, white dudes aren't even applying to HBCUs.
It's kind of different for baseball. I know Cador has been recruiting more white kids, as has the guy at Mississippi Valley St, and I think Texas Southern. Bethune Cookman, which is usually a pretty solid baseball program/team, is generally filled with Puerto Ricans, as they seem to be one of the only schools that recruits the island.
This post was edited on 12/28/12 at 8:57 am
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Posted on 12/28/12 at 9:49 am to Sophandros
quote:
The people who think that the public HBCUs still serve a purpose are dying.
Yeah, I'd bet it would be just a bunch of old fogie civil righters protesting if congress were to pass legislation outlawing public HBCU's.
Posted on 12/28/12 at 10:42 am to trackfan
quote:
All diehard SEC football fans should get down on their hands and knees and thank MLK and LBJ for what they did in the 1960's, because without them, the SEC would not be the dominant football conference that it is today. If folks like George Wallace, Ross Barnett, Orville Faubus, Lester Maddox and Strom Thurmond had had their way and won the battle over civil rights, the SEC wouldn't even be an AQ football conference today and would likely be on par with the MAC and the Sun Belt Conference.
I completely disagree with almost all of this. Wallace et al had no chance of winning, they were standing against the tide, so that is a bit of a red herring. Racial attitudes were changing, that's why the civil rights movement was successful.
What most football fans and coaches care most about is winning. There is no way the football crazy south would have stood by and watched their teams lose just to keep from having black players for the last 50 years. Sports is a great example of markets and choice overtaking government force. Govt kept people segregated. Sports is pure mertiocracy.
Posted on 12/28/12 at 10:50 am to Rocket
quote:
Yeah, I'd bet it would be just a bunch of old fogie civil righters protesting if congress were to pass legislation outlawing public HBCU's.
How would Congress legally outlaw public HBCU's?
Posted on 12/28/12 at 11:03 am to H-Town Tiger
quote:
There is no way the football crazy south would have stood by and watched their teams lose just to keep from having black players for the last 50 years.
frick, let's just remember the story about Bear Bryant playing USC and how that allowed him to recruit black players
just like only Nixon could go to China, only the Bear could push that choice in Alabama
Posted on 12/28/12 at 11:07 am to Sophandros
quote:
There are still a few HBCUs that are at a high level (Spelman immediately comes to mind, but that is only for women. IMO, Morehouse is just mostly living off of reputation these days...).
quote:
The question of whether they still have a place comes to mind. I think the private HBCUs certainly still have a place. The public ones, however, I'm not sure. I have several family members who are HBCU grads. There is something to be said about tradition, but there is more to be said about a quality of education.
i don't see how a quality minority applicant would go to amorehouse or spelman when they could likely get a lot of money to go to an elite school. it just doesn't seem like a rational choice
but, then again, silly things like tradition cloud rationality all the time
Posted on 12/28/12 at 11:07 am to H-Town Tiger
quote:
I completely disagree with almost all of this. Wallace et al had no chance of winning, they were standing against the tide, so that is a bit of a red herring
Nothing was inevitable about civil rights. The segregationists had been winning these battles for almost 100 years ever since Reconstruction ended. Every time a President would try to do something about it, they backed down after deciding they would have too spend too much political capital. LBJ was the first President who said "damn the torpedoes".
quote:
Racial attitudes were changing, that's why the civil rights movement was successful.
Are you out of your mind? Racial attitiudes in the South hadn't changed at all over 100 years. In the mid-60's, a Gallup poll showed that 75% of White southerners were opposed to civil rights. Even conservatives like William Buckley, who were opposed to civil rights at the time, later on admitted that he was wrong and that this country would have never evolved its way out of Jim Crow without federal intervention. Or as MLK put it: "Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressors, it must be demanded by the oppressed." In the entire history of mankind, there has not been a single instance in which a group of oppressors have voluntarily ended their oppression out of the goodness of their hearts.
quote:
What most football fans and coaches care most about is winning. There is no way the football crazy south would have stood by and watched their teams lose just to keep from having black players for the last 50 years.
If that were true, the SEC schools would have integrated voluntarily rather than at the barrel of a gun after federal troops were sent in.
Posted on 12/28/12 at 11:13 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
frick, let's just remember the story about Bear Bryant playing USC and how that allowed him to recruit black players
just like only Nixon could go to China, only the Bear could push that choice in Alabama
A lot of folks feel that Bryant was timid about integration and that he had the political capital to integrate much sooner, a la Dean Smith at North Carolina, without having to resort to the USC spectacle. Remember the university had already been integrated for seven years when that game was played, so keep in mind that without federal intervention, the USC game would have been meaningless because it would have still been illegal for Blacks to attend Alabama.
This post was edited on 12/28/12 at 11:17 am
Posted on 12/28/12 at 11:22 am to trackfan
quote:
trackfan
Secscout, how is your progress on racial reconciliation coming in New Orleans?
Posted on 12/28/12 at 11:24 am to trackfan
quote:
A lot of folks feel that Bryant was timid about integration and that he had the political capital to integrate much sooner,
hindsight and speculation
quote:
without federal intervention, the USC game would have been meaningless because it would have still been illegal for Blacks to attend Alabama.
i thought we were talking about HBCUs and SEC schools post-integration?
anyway, it would have come eventually. things stranger than college football have caused major social movements
This post was edited on 12/28/12 at 11:26 am
Posted on 12/28/12 at 11:49 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:quote:
A lot of folks feel that Bryant was timid about integration and that he had the political capital to integrate much sooner,
hindsight and speculation
Not really. Using your Nixon-goes-to-China analogy, if Bryant really did have the stature to lead Alabama fans, why didn't he integrate his football team right after the school was integrated in 1963? I think a better analogy is Obama on gay rights, where he waited for public opinion and Congress to get out in front on the issue before he came out in support of it.
EDIT: I do see the 1970 USC-Alabama game as an important event in the larger civil rights movement since it did break the ice with regards to SEC football, but Wilbur Jackson could not have signed his letter of intent without the work that was done by LBJ and MLK because it would have been illegal.
This post was edited on 12/28/12 at 11:55 am
Posted on 12/28/12 at 12:01 pm to SlowFlowPro
A quality applicant going to Spelman is a rational choice, because Spelman is basically at the same level as the Seven Sisters.
Agree with you on Morehouse, though. IMO, they have gone downhill drastically.
But another question is this: if HBCUs went away, where do those students go?
I would propose reorganizing state run higher education in the states where there are several HBCUs and HWCUs that are near each other and duplicate programs. Designate some programs for the HBCU and others for the HWCU. Take FAMU and FSU, for example. Have engineering at FAMU and business at FSU. You want to be an engineer and go to school in Tally? You're at FAMU. Want to major in business? FSU for you. Let's remember that the H is for HISTORICALLY. Historically implies the past. Plus, if you enact a change like this, the previously underfunded and poorly run schools will benefit from better funding and more accountability, which leads to better management.
Agree with you on Morehouse, though. IMO, they have gone downhill drastically.
But another question is this: if HBCUs went away, where do those students go?
I would propose reorganizing state run higher education in the states where there are several HBCUs and HWCUs that are near each other and duplicate programs. Designate some programs for the HBCU and others for the HWCU. Take FAMU and FSU, for example. Have engineering at FAMU and business at FSU. You want to be an engineer and go to school in Tally? You're at FAMU. Want to major in business? FSU for you. Let's remember that the H is for HISTORICALLY. Historically implies the past. Plus, if you enact a change like this, the previously underfunded and poorly run schools will benefit from better funding and more accountability, which leads to better management.
Posted on 12/28/12 at 1:50 pm to Sophandros
quote:
Agree with you on Morehouse, though. IMO, they have gone downhill drastically.
how so?
Posted on 12/28/12 at 1:53 pm to ATLTiger
Just my perception from knowing some alums. The school still has a good rep, but I haven't been overly impressed with a lot of the recent grads I've come across.
Posted on 12/28/12 at 3:30 pm to trackfan
quote:
Nothing was inevitable about civil rights.
I guess I disagree, I think over time more people viewed segregation as wrong. Slavery existed for 300 years, but more and more people were opposed to it by the 1800's.
quote:
Are you out of your mind? Racial attitiudes in the South hadn't changed at all over 100 years. In the mid-60's, a Gallup poll showed that 75% of White southerners were opposed to civil rights. Even conservatives like William Buckley, who were opposed to civil rights at the time, later on admitted that he was wrong and that this country would have never evolved its way out of Jim Crow without federal intervention.
We need government intervention to correct previous government intervention. Jim Crow was a the law, legitimized by the USSC. I'd argue with out that law, things would have evolved sooner.
quote:
If that were true, the SEC schools would have integrated voluntarily rather than at the barrel of a gun after federal troops were sent in.
Troops were never called to integrate sports.
This post was edited on 12/28/12 at 3:42 pm
Posted on 12/28/12 at 3:34 pm to Sophandros
quote:
But another question is this: if HBCUs went away, where do those students go?
which students? the good ones or the poor ones?
quote:
I would propose reorganizing state run higher education in the states where there are several HBCUs and HWCUs that are near each other and duplicate programs. Designate some programs for the HBCU and others for the HWCU. Take FAMU and FSU, for example. Have engineering at FAMU and business at FSU. You want to be an engineer and go to school in Tally? You're at FAMU. Want to major in business? FSU for you. Let's remember that the H is for HISTORICALLY. Historically implies the past. Plus, if you enact a change like this, the previously underfunded and poorly run schools will benefit from better funding and more accountability, which leads to better management.
you couldn't even accomplish this with good colleges in states without the social issues
i think this plan, if done on racial lines, would work out about as well as integration in BR public schools
Posted on 12/28/12 at 3:39 pm to trackfan
quote:
why didn't he integrate his football team right after the school was integrated in 1963?
I don't think it was seen as a necessity to compete at the time, Kentucky was favored over Texas Western, though it would have become painfully obvious over time, especially as more black players succeeded in the pros and at other colleges and more black players were getting a chance at lower levels around the country.
Posted on 12/28/12 at 3:48 pm to OleWar
Black College Football (HBCU) is Dyin
Posted on 12/28/12 at 4:09 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
A lot of folks feel that Bryant was timid about integration and that he had the political capital to integrate much sooner,
hindsight and speculation
Not really. Bryant reported stonewalled SEC integration at coaches' meetings. He was very much opposed to it until he got whooped by USC. After that he very quietly started recruiting black players. The Bear was a racist, from all accounts.
This post was edited on 12/28/12 at 4:11 pm
Posted on 12/28/12 at 4:13 pm to trackfan
quote:
A lot of folks feel that Bryant was timid about integration and that he had the political capital to integrate much sooner, a la Dean Smith at North Carolina, without having to resort to the USC spectacle. Remember the university had already been integrated for seven years when that game was played, so keep in mind that without federal intervention, the USC game would have been meaningless because it would have still been illegal for Blacks to attend Alabama.
pretty sure Bryant wanted black players at A&M and the admins/SWCs refusal to let them in was part of why he left.
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