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Message
re: Will Bitcoin be built under rather than on top of?
Posted on 2/6/14 at 3:35 pm to WikiTiger
Posted on 2/6/14 at 3:35 pm to WikiTiger
quote:
That's not the case. It's just that our answers will probably not resonate with you.
But to give you an answer, decentralization is preferred because:
-decentralized systems are censorship resistant
-decentralized systems are shutdown resistant
-decentralized systems operate on a consensus model
-decentralized systems are not controlled by an individual, group or government that may have a certain agenda
Do those reasons suffice?
What in your life is:
censored
Being shutdown
Not a consensus model
& Controlled by an individual, group or government that may have a certain agenda?
You say this as if it is happening to you. Is that the case?
Being that the topic is Bitcoin, how can you guarantee that groups of people will not "group" together to control the Bitcoin market?
1
Posted on 2/6/14 at 3:44 pm to JayDeerTay84
quote:
censored
A lot of stuff is censored. To keep this related to bitcoin, payment networks are currently censored. When the wikileaks stuff initally came to light, traditional payment networks (Visa, MC, Paypal) were pressured by the government to prohibit people donating to wikileaks, and they complied. Bitcoin is a decentralized payment network where that kind of censorship is impossible.
quote:
Being shutdown
A lot of websites are shutdown by the US government every year and domain names are often seized. A protocol based on bitcoin called Namecoin allows for a decentralized DNS system that does not allow government seizures.
quote:
Not a consensus model
Most everything in our world. Consensus models allow the users to choose which network they prefer to use and which rules they prefer to follow. Maybe it could be argued that the US at its inception was somewhat of a consensus model what with states rights and all, but that hasn't been the case for a while. That's a better discussion for the poli board, though.
quote:
& Controlled by an individual, group or government that may have a certain agenda?
Every government is this way.
Are you going to be completely obtuse and argue that my answers aren't sufficient? If so, then so be it. You don't have to believe that decentralized technology is any better. But you will be on the sideline watching as it revolutionizes the world.
quote:
Being that the topic is Bitcoin, how can you guarantee that groups of people will not "group" together to control the Bitcoin market?
If by market you mean exchange rate, then that happens all day every day. Bitcoin endures.
If you are wondering if someone is going to take over bitcoin and change the rules then it's obvious that you haven't done any research on the technology.
This post was edited on 2/6/14 at 3:45 pm
Posted on 2/6/14 at 3:51 pm to WikiTiger
I already used obtuse. Go find your own big fancy word.
Posted on 2/6/14 at 3:59 pm to WikiTiger
I asked "you" specifically what of those applies to you..
Can you answer?
You have yet to tell me why "THIS" technology is better for the world. You didn't really answer. I can give examples of why censorship is good. Why laws are good. Why governance is good. Just as you can cite bad examples of an over-reach of power.
Who is being obtuse here????
That is WHY I asked YOU point blank. I haven't received your solution yet. You have NOT outlined why WE NEED this to revolutionize the world.
You should stop assuming what I mean and simply ask a question. Much easier that way.
Can you answer?
quote:
Are you going to be completely obtuse and argue that my answers aren't sufficient? If so, then so be it. You don't have to believe that decentralized technology is any better. But you will be on the sideline watching as it revolutionizes the world.
You have yet to tell me why "THIS" technology is better for the world. You didn't really answer. I can give examples of why censorship is good. Why laws are good. Why governance is good. Just as you can cite bad examples of an over-reach of power.
Who is being obtuse here????
That is WHY I asked YOU point blank. I haven't received your solution yet. You have NOT outlined why WE NEED this to revolutionize the world.
quote:
If you are wondering if someone is going to take over bitcoin and change the rules then it's obvious that you haven't done any research on the technology.
You should stop assuming what I mean and simply ask a question. Much easier that way.
This post was edited on 2/6/14 at 4:03 pm
Posted on 2/6/14 at 4:03 pm to JayDeerTay84
quote:
You have yet to tell me why "THIS" technology is better for the world. You didn't really answer. I can give examples of why censorship is good. Why laws are good. Why governance is good. Just as you can cite bad examples of an over-reach of power.
Seems like we just have a philosophical difference of opinion then.
That's fine. I don't really care to convince you that decentralization is ideal. I know it is going to heavily influence the future of technology and politics. Like I said earlier, you can sit on the sidelines and watch if you want.
quote:
You have NOT outlined why WE NEED this to revolutionize the world.
My reasons wouldn't resonate with you and you'll argue that they aren't good reasons.
Posted on 2/6/14 at 4:06 pm to WikiTiger
quote:
My reasons wouldn't resonate with you and you'll argue that they aren't good reasons.
You don't know that. For some reason unclear to me, you do not wish to back up your statement of how it will revolutionize the world.
quote:
I know it is going to heavily influence the future of technology and politics. Like I said earlier, you can sit on the sidelines and watch if you want.
Why is it so hard to explain "HOW" it will do this. I am asking for the reason in which you believe in this.
I am not being a dick. I am just amazed at why Bitcoin followers "politic" around the question.
Posted on 2/6/14 at 4:09 pm to JayDeerTay84
(no message)
This post was edited on 2/6/14 at 4:10 pm
Posted on 2/6/14 at 4:09 pm to JayDeerTay84
quote:
Why is it so hard to explain "HOW" it will do this. I am asking for the reason in which you believe in this.
jesus christ man, I gave 2 specific examples of how decentralization is being used RIGHT NOW (payment networks and DNS) and you still have your head in the sand
How about the idea of decentralized internet access? You know, for when, say, the government of Egypt shuts down internet access during an uprising to prevent people from communicating. Decentralizing internet access with mesh networks is currently in development. Do you think that's something that is trivial or not revolutionary?
Oh wait, my bad, I don't live in Egypt so I can't use that as an example...right?
Posted on 2/6/14 at 4:14 pm to WikiTiger
quote:
jesus christ man, I gave 2 specific examples of how decentralization is being used RIGHT NOW (payment networks and DNS) and you still have your head in the sand
How about the idea of decentralized internet access? You know, for when, say, the government of Egypt shuts down internet access during an uprising to prevent people from communicating. Decentralizing internet access with mesh networks is currently in development. Do you think that's something that is trivial or not revolutionary?
Oh wait, my bad, I don't live in Egypt so I can't use that as an example...right?
Calm down.. Not need to be rustled.
Great example. Well no, I do not live in Egypt so I cannot begin to think like their people and know what their culture is truly like. I do however live here in the states. I can see how censorship can be both good and bad. I can see how that in extreme cases, it is needed. Or maybe not even extreme cases and just a need to shut bad sites down like Childporn. Or shut down a information stream in which terrorist organizations are communicating.
I feel like you are taking specific negatives from "cultures" and applying a general blank to the world.
Posted on 2/6/14 at 4:17 pm to WikiTiger
quote:
-decentralized systems are not controlled by an individual, group or government that may have a certain agenda
You posted just a few weeks back how large mining groups within bitcoin are actively undermining major altcoins to prevent their rise as competition.
quote:
-decentralized systems operate on a consensus model
Consensus is based on mining power which certain groups are controlling significant portions of. This isn't a 1 body 1 vote system.
Posted on 2/6/14 at 4:19 pm to C
quote:
You posted just a few weeks back how large mining groups within bitcoin are actively undermining major altcoins to prevent their rise as competition.
Yep, and I discussed specifically what they are able to do. Do you remember what power they have when they attack these networks? Can they change the rules?
Posted on 2/6/14 at 4:20 pm to WikiTiger
quote:
Yep, and I discussed specifically what they are able to do. Do you remember what power they have when they attack these networks? Can they change the rules?
Why do rules exist?
Posted on 2/6/14 at 4:24 pm to JayDeerTay84
quote:
You have yet to tell me why "THIS" technology is better for the world. You didn't really answer. I can give examples of why censorship is good. Why laws are good. Why governance is good. Just as you can cite bad examples of an over-reach of power.
Who is being obtuse here????
That is WHY I asked YOU point blank. I haven't received your solution yet. You have NOT outlined why WE NEED this to revolutionize the world.
quote:
JayDeerTay84 <=I think I like this guy.
Posted on 2/6/14 at 4:28 pm to JayDeerTay84
A lot of Liberals have been really fired up about the removal of Net Neutrality recently and you have a free, decentralized solution without the state with the development of mesh networks.
Posted on 2/6/14 at 4:33 pm to joshnorris14
Holy shite!!! Are you serious? Even though the computing is distributed, Bitcoins have centralized control. All miners must be operating with the same software to be looking for the same solution to the same mathematical problem. The only question is who has the central control. For Bitcoins it is those with the power to modify the software.
You are naïve if you think that Bitcoin mining operations will not consolidate down to a few large pools with the capability for the managers to collude and manipulate Bitcoins in the same manner as governments and central banks can do with traditional forms of money. Who will be able to hold the Bitcoin mining managers accountable?
You are naïve if you think that Bitcoin mining operations will not consolidate down to a few large pools with the capability for the managers to collude and manipulate Bitcoins in the same manner as governments and central banks can do with traditional forms of money. Who will be able to hold the Bitcoin mining managers accountable?
Posted on 2/6/14 at 4:35 pm to joshnorris14
quote:
A lot of Liberals have been really fired up about the removal of Net Neutrality recently and you have a free, decentralized solution without the state with the development of mesh networks.
So you should be free to hack, steal, share child-porn etc free from governments knowing what you are doing?
Just come out and say it, because that is what you promote.
Rules and governance or here for a very solid reason.
This post was edited on 2/6/14 at 4:36 pm
Posted on 2/6/14 at 4:48 pm to WikiTiger
quote:
That's fine. I don't really care to convince you that decentralization is ideal. I know it is going to heavily influence the future of technology and politics. Like I said earlier, you can sit on the sidelines and watch if you want.
This is a pissing contest I don't really want to join, but I'd be very careful with that particular word. Believing, thinking, or expecting are not the same as knowing. Knowing something that has happened or is currently happening is tough enough, knowing something in the future is one of the few things that can get close to impossible.
quote:
How about the idea of decentralized internet access? You know, for when, say, the government of Egypt shuts down internet access during an uprising to prevent people from communicating. Decentralizing internet access with mesh networks is currently in development. Do you think that's something that is trivial or not revolutionary?
You could have already made the point you were trying to make with Egypt, or you didn't make it clear here. Decentralized networks were already in full swing in Egypt at the time. The revolution actually didn't get strong momentum until Mubarak shut down the internet, then everyone got pissed off and started communicating on the streets through blue tooth.
This post was edited on 2/6/14 at 4:55 pm
Posted on 2/6/14 at 4:52 pm to JayDeerTay84
quote:
So you should be free to hack, steal, share child-porn etc free from governments knowing what you are doing?
Just come out and say it, because that is what you promote.
Rules and governance or here for a very solid reason.
To be fair, this happens right now and its illegal, so it really isn't an argument against mesh networks or the like.
Posted on 2/6/14 at 5:00 pm to Teddy Ruxpin
quote:
To be fair, this happens right now and its illegal, so it really isn't an argument against mesh networks or the like.
Has nothing to do with mesh networks themselves. Has everything to do with getting people like Wiki to state their intentions and backup why this technology is good for the world.....
He and others promote "a decentralized" network and cite X, Y, Z. However what they propose adds more benefits to those who seek to do illegal things than it provides users such as yourself and me.
What benefit do you or I gain from this?
If you had $1 worth of bitcoin to purchase a piece of gum with $1 and they accepted your bitcoin payment, how did you benefit?
How would you benefit from a mesh network. What "can't" you do now that you need to be able to do?
Can anyone answer?
This is nothing more than people saying frick the government and while this might surprise people like Wiki, I agree in most cases. However, there are sound reasons as to why people have laws, regulations, rules, etc. I should not be allowed to do BAD things. People have not yet once proven to self govern with out a central body of leadership. If they have, show me.
Bitcoin users adopt this "frick the system" mentality. The funny thing is, for this to work, governments will be the ones who will make it work.
This post was edited on 2/6/14 at 5:07 pm
Posted on 2/6/14 at 5:05 pm to Poodlebrain
quote:
Bitcoins have centralized control
"Bitcoins" are not centrally controlled, they are distributed widely. I own bitcoins, Wiki owns bitcoins, and many more people own bitcoins. The Bitcoin protocol is not controlled by miners, miners operate under the rule of the protocol. Even if miners could take over the network, they still wouldn't control bitcoin, but would be capable of spending bitcoins more than once.
This has been explained MANY times by Wiki.
quote:
You are naïve if you think that Bitcoin mining operations will not consolidate down to a few large pools with the capability for the managers to collude and manipulate Bitcoins in the same manner as governments and central banks can do with traditional forms of money. Who will be able to hold the Bitcoin mining managers accountable?
You don't understand the technology. Yes there will be centralized mining operations (and to an extent this exists today) but that is VERY different than saying bitcoin is centralized.
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