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Started By
Message
What is your outlook on the economy?
Posted on 9/11/14 at 11:06 am
Posted on 9/11/14 at 11:06 am
I was going to start a thread giving my opinion on the subject, but it's so dark that most would consider it outlandish. What do you think the future holds?
We're in a golden age and it will only get better.
Gradual economic recovery.
Muddle along for an extended period.
Recession.
Depression.
Economic collapse.
We're in a golden age and it will only get better.
Gradual economic recovery.
Muddle along for an extended period.
Recession.
Depression.
Economic collapse.
Posted on 9/11/14 at 11:17 am to wdhalgren
quote:
it will only get better.
I wouldn't say this is the golden age, but I have no reason to believe the above statement will turn out to be false.
Posted on 9/11/14 at 11:30 am to wdhalgren
There will definitly be a huge reset in the near future.
Posted on 9/11/14 at 11:35 am to wdhalgren
I think there are several significant problems in our future. If we don't solve them, I think our outlook is probably muddling along and/or slow recession. I do think these problems are very solveable, but I'm not sure if we have the will to do it.
1) Student loan interest and the cause, runaway college costs
2) National debt - specifically interest payments on said debt
3) Uncompetative tax situation, especially in corporate tax
4) Alignment of career training to future career availablility (quit have people going to college for degrees that won't get them a useful career, push more people into careers like oil and gas and mechanical that don't require a degree but provide a nice income)
5) General infrastructure (roads, bridges, utility) that are falling apart, much less getting needed upgrades.
1) Student loan interest and the cause, runaway college costs
2) National debt - specifically interest payments on said debt
3) Uncompetative tax situation, especially in corporate tax
4) Alignment of career training to future career availablility (quit have people going to college for degrees that won't get them a useful career, push more people into careers like oil and gas and mechanical that don't require a degree but provide a nice income)
5) General infrastructure (roads, bridges, utility) that are falling apart, much less getting needed upgrades.
Posted on 9/11/14 at 11:37 am to wdhalgren
GET THE BUGOUT BAGS AND CANNED GOODS READY!!
Posted on 9/11/14 at 11:39 am to LSUFanHouston
That's a reasonably thorough answer. Why do you think debt/interest is a potential, if solveable, problem?
Posted on 9/11/14 at 11:49 am to Mootsman
quote:
There will definitly be a huge reset in the near future.
This... Everything is inflated and suppressed by QE IMO
Posted on 9/11/14 at 11:58 am to TigerTatorTots
Good thing there's a thread for that
Posted on 9/11/14 at 12:16 pm to BACONisMEATcandy
That's two saying "reset". The concept of a "reset" raises some interesting questions. How would a reset manifest? Falling stock prices, falling home prices, higher unemployment? What would that do to government revenues from capital gains tax, income tax? How would the government respond to that situation?
Or, what if none of those things happen? Suppose home and stock prices keep rising steadily, Wages rise, banks lend for people to buy homes and cars and boats, etc. Interest rates / borrowing costs remain low. Does anyone see a reason why that might happen and everything seems to be working out fine? I actually this is the most likely near term outcome, and it will continue working for a bit longer. But there are some very sound economic reasons for why it will eventually fail badly, and the word reset won't do justice to what happens then.
Or, what if none of those things happen? Suppose home and stock prices keep rising steadily, Wages rise, banks lend for people to buy homes and cars and boats, etc. Interest rates / borrowing costs remain low. Does anyone see a reason why that might happen and everything seems to be working out fine? I actually this is the most likely near term outcome, and it will continue working for a bit longer. But there are some very sound economic reasons for why it will eventually fail badly, and the word reset won't do justice to what happens then.
This post was edited on 9/11/14 at 12:17 pm
Posted on 9/11/14 at 12:33 pm to LSUFanHouston
quote:
1) Student loan interest and the cause, runaway college costs
Huge problem that extends to so many different aspects of the economy. People don't realize how big a deal this is. Especially when you consider having a bachelor degree qualifies you for about nothing nowadays (especially if it isn't in a technical field)
quote:
2) National debt - specifically interest payments on said debt
This isn't a big deal at all concerning interest. We aren't paying more in interest now than we were at just about any point in time in history. When you calculate the Debt:GDP percentage and current interest rates, we are paying the same % amount of GDP for interest at any point in the past century, often even less.
The problem is that interest rates likely won't always be this low, Federal Reserve balance sheet looks like garbage and needs to be fixed and the TBills aren't being picked up domestically.
quote:
3) Uncompetative tax situation, especially in corporate tax
This is a huge issue. Patent laws are even more screwed up when you are talking about evolving technology and hindering growth.
quote:
4) Alignment of career training to future career availablility (quit have people going to college for degrees that won't get them a useful career, push more people into careers like oil and gas and mechanical that don't require a degree but provide a nice income)
I agree. Works for countries like Germany that hvave a huge trade surplus due to superior technical ability of their population.
quote:
5) General infrastructure (roads, bridges, utility) that are falling apart, much less getting needed upgrades.
Going back into the debt issue, this is a huge problem because we are debt spending for dumb stuff not important things like this
Posted on 9/11/14 at 12:56 pm to GenesChin
quote:
Federal Reserve balance sheet looks like garbage and needs to be fixed
Now we're getting to the heart of the matter. The federal reserve has pumped nearly $4 trillion of new money into the US economy in the last five years. They did that because our debt has become increasingly intolerable for many decades and the only way to maintain the illusion of economic growth was to keep lowering interest rates and allowing more debt to accumulate. After lowering interest rates for 30 years continuously, they finally arrived at zero on short term debt and it still wasn't enough stimulus to keep the economy from spiralling into an economic black hole of deflation and defaults. So they effectively made interest rates negative, by taking the entire yield curve below the rate of inflation. They did that by printing money and buying bonds at very low yields.
All those new dollars were used to finance the government, but nobody had to pay. Trillions spent by recipients of government benefits, trillions of consumption that weren't paid out in the form of corporate wages, or collected in taxes, or borrowed from bond buyers. Good for corporate profits, damn right, especially when corporate borrowing costs were driven down too. Mortgages financed at rates that no sensible lender would offer, at least not without a government guarantee and a federal reserve assurance that home prices wouldn't be allowed to drop. Ben Bernanke made it very clear, he'd print as much money as it took to keep that from happening. Taxes remained low, budget deficit soared, but interest rates didn't rise because the money wasn't borrowed, it was created.
It makes an economy look viable (for a while) if asset prices rise faster than the borrowing cost to finance those assets. The problem is that when the debt load becomes extreme, that can never be undone without causing massive destruction in the bond market. So, the fed has to keep short term rates permanently well below the rate of inflation. That real (inflation adjusted) negative yield has to become more negative over time (just like it has decreased in a straight line fashion over the last 30 years) in order to refinance the compounding old debt as well as new debt required to "grow the economy", pay unfunded obligations like social security and medicare, pension plans, etc. Lenders must accept an increasingly negative return after inflation, until the only lender left will be the central bank, which can create money out of thin air. Everyone else will spend or invest their money immediately to avoid loss of purchasing power.
This post was edited on 9/11/14 at 1:23 pm
Posted on 9/11/14 at 12:58 pm to GenesChin
Why do people keep thinking QE money is inflating the market?? That is false, The fed bought bonds from teh banks and that cash is still sitting on balance sheets at the banks. That money is not circulating in the economy and therefore has no influence on the market. And until banks become more lenient on loans, with interest rates staying current, that money will continue to sit there.
The market is improving through earnings by these companies. They continue to surpass their estimates, that's why its continuing to grow.
And just as GenesChin posted the National Debt is not a big deal as long as our GDP is surpasing that interest rate.
I vote the economy is gradually improving.
The market is improving through earnings by these companies. They continue to surpass their estimates, that's why its continuing to grow.
And just as GenesChin posted the National Debt is not a big deal as long as our GDP is surpasing that interest rate.
I vote the economy is gradually improving.
Posted on 9/11/14 at 12:59 pm to wdhalgren
quote:
wdhalgren
Post more.
Posted on 9/11/14 at 1:03 pm to wdhalgren
If the GOP wins in a wave in Nov. there will be a partial release of pent up investment capital sparking some better growth numbers. If not, flat line growth. We are in Carter II.
Posted on 9/11/14 at 1:04 pm to I Love Bama
FWIW, I think the Fed's balance sheet is actually in better shape than it has been in a long time. I'm not saying that's saying a lot, or that I'm 100% comfortable with it, I'm just saying what I said.
Posted on 9/11/14 at 1:13 pm to wdhalgren
quote:
Why do you think debt/interest is a potential, if solveable, problem?
quote:
This isn't a big deal at all concerning interest. We aren't paying more in interest now than we were at just about any point in time in history. When you calculate the Debt:GDP percentage and current interest rates, we are paying the same % amount of GDP for interest at any point in the past century, often even less.
The problem is that interest rates likely won't always be this low, Federal Reserve balance sheet looks like garbage and needs to be fixed and the TBills aren't being picked up domestically.
Yes, but I don't see how interest rates stay this low forever. And when rates go up, the amount of money we are spending on interest payments for federal debt is going to skyrocket.
Where is that money going to come from?
It's solveable if we reduce our debt. If, as the economy improves, interest rates rise, but, we are able to turn federal surpluses in (instead of federal deficits) we can use the surpluses to pay down the debt.
But there are only two ways to create surpluses - we have to reduce expenses and/or increase revenue. An improving economy isn't going to probably provide enough additional tax revenue by itself.
Posted on 9/11/14 at 1:14 pm to Shepherd88
quote:
The fed bought bonds from teh banks and that cash is still sitting on balance sheets at the banks.
Of course it's sitting in the banks. Where else would it be, in mattresses? Just because new money ends up in the banking system doesn't mean it wasn't spent, or invested. It absolutely was and without the fed's money printing the market would have continued to crater for years. Corporate profits rose because people were spending money that was essentially free, not taxed, or borrowed, or paid as wages.
I suggest you look at stock charts for argentina, or venezuela, or zimbabwe a few years back, or Weimar Germany. A rapidly expanding money supply and rising stock prices go hand in hand.
This post was edited on 9/11/14 at 1:19 pm
Posted on 9/11/14 at 1:18 pm to LSUFanHouston
quote:
Yes, but I don't see how interest rates stay this low forever. And when rates go up, the amount of money we are spending on interest payments for federal debt is going to skyrocket.
The problem is, that we have $60 trillion in outstanding debt, and more accumulating by the day. Interest rates can't be allowed to rise, or if they do they must rise slower than the rate of inflation. Otherwise, the banking system, the federal reserve and the US goverment itself will collapse in a wave of defaults. So, yes it's a problem, but it won't happen because the federal reserve will keep interest rates below inflation, which will destroy the dollar at an accelerating pace.
This post was edited on 9/11/14 at 1:20 pm
Posted on 9/11/14 at 1:30 pm to wdhalgren
Sorry, gotta disagree with you, corporate profits have not been inflated due to QE. My point was that money that the federal reserve used to purchase bonds is still sitting there in cash, banks are still not lending like that once were.
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