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Started By
Message
re: Official CryptoTalk Thread
Posted on 12/4/21 at 2:49 pm to JimMorrison
Posted on 12/4/21 at 2:49 pm to JimMorrison
quote:
It can't be a store of value if the world governments don't accept it as value
Old school line of thought. In the near term this is still true but crypto is primarily an open source and decentralized space. As more and more adoption occurs, people can become less and less reliant upon government-issued money.
BTC and ETH are decentralized, and both have intrinsic value solely for their block space. In addition to that, ETH has intrinsic value as decentralized platforms and protocols continue to pop up and innovate.
This genie is out of the bottle and any governments banning it right now are missing the opportunity to stay relevant in the new economy.
This post was edited on 12/4/21 at 2:51 pm
1
Posted on 12/4/21 at 3:04 pm to JimMorrison
quote:
You already have a major authoritarian country banning this risk asset.
Fixed.
What applies to China does not apply to everyone else.
Posted on 12/4/21 at 3:06 pm to Hulkklogan
The governments allow the economy.
If crypto is adopted, it becomes centralized. Do you really think governments are going to hand over control of their fiscal policy to something they can't control?
And no crypto has intrinsic value.
If crypto is adopted, it becomes centralized. Do you really think governments are going to hand over control of their fiscal policy to something they can't control?
And no crypto has intrinsic value.
Posted on 12/4/21 at 3:07 pm to BottomlandBrew
It's still a major economy.
Posted on 12/4/21 at 3:30 pm to JimMorrison
It's a major economy that plays by different rules than most everyone else. Democratic countries would have a much harder time getting rid of it.
Posted on 12/4/21 at 4:22 pm to JimMorrison
quote:
If crypto is adopted, it becomes centralized. Do you really think governments are going to hand over control of their fiscal policy to something they can't control?
Please do tell how a government centralizes a globally decentralized network.
Governments will make CBDCs to take part in crypto and keep their currency relevant. Yes, citizens will only be able to interact with the government with the CBDCs most likely. Otherwise, more and more money is going to keep pouring into crypto.
quote:
And no crypto has intrinsic value.
Ethereum network is ushering in whole new suites of protocols, applications, forms of governance, financials, art, etc. etc. and you think it has no intrinsic value
It has as much, if not more, intrinsic value the the US dollar. The only thing propping that up is the US military, basically.
This post was edited on 12/4/21 at 4:25 pm
Posted on 12/4/21 at 5:17 pm to Hulkklogan
quote:
Please do tell how a government centralizes a globally decentralized network.
Why would a major government adopt a "currency" that they can't control? Please excuse the 3rd world financial markets in this discussion.
BTC being a store of value is proven to be wrong.
Of course, governments will use the blockchain tech to build out their network, but it's interesting to see so many people's conviction of this crypto outcome.
I think everyone is blinded by greed to hope their investment goes up. A true adoption scenario is when a government creates their own digital currency and every other crypto project is just that, a risk asset.
quote:
has as much, if not more, intrinsic value the the US dollar. The only thing propping that up is the US military, basically
Great point. Digital assets not backed by major governments have more intrinsic value than the world militaries.
This post was edited on 12/4/21 at 5:18 pm
Posted on 12/4/21 at 6:40 pm to JimMorrison
Too many look at this wrong. It doesn’t have to be accepted as a currency at all. It just has to be accepted that it has value, which we are already there. This isn’t determined by governments, but rather users.
From this perspective, it’s about performance vs other assets that have “value”.
Crypto solves problems. Not all and yea there are many shite coins, but the key projects clearly have value as they solve problems currently facing current monetary policy.
Smart governments will realize this and work along side.
From this perspective, it’s about performance vs other assets that have “value”.
Crypto solves problems. Not all and yea there are many shite coins, but the key projects clearly have value as they solve problems currently facing current monetary policy.
Smart governments will realize this and work along side.
This post was edited on 12/4/21 at 6:43 pm
Posted on 12/4/21 at 6:52 pm to JimMorrison
quote:
It can't be a store of value if the world governments don't accept it as value.
RuneScape gold is considered a store of value in Venezuela because it is scarce and the bolivar is trash, and I can't imagine Venezuela sees much value in Runescape gold.
Bitcoin will exist and be valuable regardless of what governments do. It’s a decentralized, international network and you can send it peer to peer. They can control the fiat on ramps, sort of, but there will always be a way to acquire and store the digital asset. To try and fight that reality is the ultimate losing battle. They can impact the adoption curve timeline, but the game theory behind BTC pretty much means you face a lot of monetary cost by being hostile to it
This post was edited on 12/4/21 at 8:56 pm
Posted on 12/4/21 at 7:01 pm to JimMorrison
quote:
Why would a major government adopt a "currency" that they can't control?
The maximalist idea is that they wont have a choice. They don't need to adopt anything. At some point, you are measuring something with a ruler that is constantly changing scale with the way the deficit is running away and governments fiats are the rulers that must change to avoid catastrophe. Fortunately there is a ruler out there that will never change. Death, taxes and 21 million bitcoin. That's something btc has, that most other crypto doesnt. The existing blockchain and decentralization "is" some type of value; also why btc is on a nother level than any other crypto in my opinion. It's not worthless.
quote:
BTC being a store of value is proven to be wrong.
Please expand, how is it being proven wrong?
As a follow up, I'd ask if you consder gold a store of value?
This post was edited on 12/4/21 at 7:03 pm
Posted on 12/4/21 at 7:32 pm to JayDeerTay84
quote:
Too many look at this wrong. It doesn’t have to be accepted as a currency at all.
Oh really? You're proving my point.
Posted on 12/4/21 at 7:39 pm to Ross
quote:
store of value in Venezuela
yeah, let's admire a 3rd world country's financial market quote:
Bitcoin will exist and be valuable regardless of what governments do.
It will exist and the only value is what traders place in it.
quote:
the game theory behind BTC pretty much means you face a lot of monetary cost by being hostile to it
Explain please. What monetary cost are you talking about?
Posted on 12/4/21 at 7:51 pm to Pendulum
quote:
Fortunately there is a ruler out there that will never change. Death, taxes and 21 million bitcoin.
Fortunately, there are only 21 million shares of XYZ company. Value has to go up, right?
quote:
The existing blockchain and decentralization "is" some type of value
Does BTC own the blockchain?
quote:
Please expand, how is it being proven wrong?
As a follow up, I'd ask if you consder gold a store of value?
Proven wrong by its correlation to the stock market. Nothing else needs to be said because it's a risk asset. And yes, gold is a store of value. What?
Why does gold's price increase in a risk off environment? It seems like no one here understands forex trading, but is trying to convince themselves they own the next global currency.
Posted on 12/4/21 at 7:59 pm to JimMorrison
quote:
Does BTC own the blockchain
....do you have any any idea what a Blockchain is?
Bitcoin is the name for both the cryptocurrency and the blockchain, btw. For ETH, Ethereum is the network and Ether is the asset.
The coins are valuable because the networks are valuable to people.
This post was edited on 12/4/21 at 8:00 pm
Posted on 12/4/21 at 8:02 pm to JimMorrison
quote:
Fortunately, there are only 21 million shares of XYZ company. Value has to go up, right?
The company can issue new stock and dilute at any point if needed. No one will ever be able to dilute btc.
quote:
Does BTC own the blockchain?
Not quite sure what youre asking here.
quote:
Proven wrong by its correlation to the stock market. Nothing else needs to be said because it's a risk asset. And yes, gold is a store of value. What? Why does gold's price increase in a risk off environment?
It seems like no one here understands forex trading, but is trying to convince themselves they own the next global currency.
Gold is also controlled similarly to BTC. There is very little actual intrinsic value in a bar of gold, (sure there is some industrial use, but there is so much gold in the world compared to that demand, its very small price impact). If the apocolypse comes, what are you gonna do with a bar of gold? There would have to be consensus to apply the value to that bar of gold, similarly. The chart of gold does not look that attractive in March 2020. It correlated to stocks just like BTC. BTC has also blown away gold returns over the life of BTC. I feel the comparison to gold is very valuable in my understanding of BTC.
It's still not the most risk free asset class, you are correct; but every day that goes by, the volatility does as well over the life of BTC. I look at it like an asset more than a "currency" per say. Hard to compare it to pretty much anything else you could have held since inception that is as portable. I'm not going to take a bullet for btc, dont get me wrong. I also dont play around with most of the craziness in this thread, and I havent yet even dove into the world of NFT's; I just simply cant wrap my head around that one. But in my opinion, if your portfolio doesnt include some amount of BTC; you are not diversified.
This post was edited on 12/4/21 at 8:19 pm
Posted on 12/4/21 at 8:25 pm to JimMorrison
quote:
JimMorrison
Be real with me, do you know how the Bitcoin network works? Some of your comments really have me doubting it. The entire premise of intrinsic value of Bitcoin is:
(1) It's a decentralized peer to peer network
(2) The asset that can be transferred through the rails provided by this network is ultimately capped in supply and this will never change
(3) The network has properties like complete transparency of its ledger and PoW consensus system which means I don't have to know, trust, or like any of the node operators or miners because I know that we are all using the same protocols that secure the network and that is all that matters.
(4) The network is more secure than any other network in the history of the world against attack thanks to the shear wall of encryption energy provided by the miners.
These qualities have lead to people using the network. Bitcoin derives its intrinsic value from this network adoption curve and application of Metcalfe’s law to that network adoption curve. This adoption curve has seen growth over the last decade. Metcalfe’s Law says the valuation of a network is proportional to the square of the number of users of that network, therefore Bitcoin should see parabolic growth. And lo and behold, BTC token value is roughly doubling every year on average for the last decade and the total market cap is doing even better than that.
If you don’t buy into Metcalfe’s Law as it pertains to the valuation of networks, then fine. Allocate your money elsewhere. But if you have an ignorance about how the network works and why people are drawn to its attributes, I’d advise doing some reading before having such strong opinions.
This post was edited on 12/4/21 at 9:00 pm
Posted on 12/4/21 at 8:37 pm to Ross
that tard has been making the same arguments for years now
likely has dementia id assume
likely has dementia id assume
Posted on 12/4/21 at 8:43 pm to JimMorrison
quote:
yeah, let's admire a 3rd world country's financial market
I don’t think your claim that you need a government to determine that something has value for it to actually have value has any real basis in truth. Like at all. That’s the point. Value is in the eyes of the users of an asset. If a government wants to be wrong, that’s their choice.
You mentioned China and their harsh treatment of crypto. Pretty sure China bans social media networks and basically everything else not directly controlled by the CCP but this doesn't mean a priori that these networks/assets don't retain value. Even to many in China they have value enough for people to risk their life to use them on occasion.
quote:
Explain please. What monetary cost are you talking about?
Crypto mining companies are very lucrative and highly mobile and able to relocate to friendly jurisdictions relatively quickly. It’s lost jobs and lost tax revenue and if you are hostile to the asset, and lost opportunity for financial growth of your people as the asset class thrives.
This post was edited on 12/4/21 at 8:59 pm
Posted on 12/4/21 at 8:47 pm to rocket31
quote:
that tard has been making the same arguments for years now
likely has dementia id assume
the worst kind of person is one that only knows a few sentences of a Wikipedia article worth of information but has strong opinions on the subject, which is what seems to be the case here.
Pretty sure we could apply the Dunning-Kruger here, if my suspicions are correct. It’s hard for me to imagine he knows very much about this space based on his comments here
This post was edited on 12/4/21 at 8:51 pm
Posted on 12/4/21 at 8:50 pm to Ross
quote:
I don’t think your claim that you need a government to determine something has value for it to actually have value has any real basis in truth. Like at all. That’s the point.
I mean thats basically what was true before BTC. That's how the fiat system works now after 30's-WW2 when most countries stopped backing their fiat; Now it's just what the country says and how they control the faucet relative to other countries via exchange market.
If youre an old school guy that really doesnt understand how BTC works; I would get that you dont get it and his question about btc owning the blockhain tells me, he doesnt understand it at all, and I was there. It took me a long time to finally take time to dig into it and figure out what it was and how it actually worked. Last year during the summer after the first covid bill; I really started wondering where this all goes; and I started buying BTC around 11k. Luckily I had used it for sports betting purposes since very early in BTC's existence, (it's crazy to go back and look at some of my buys and transfers in early 2010's) so it wasnt radical to me, but I still didnt see the intrinsic value in it. Now I can't unlearn that it is the obvious answer to endless spiral of fiat as it exists today. Without the decentrilization and scarcity of BTC, it loses everything to me as far as intrinsic value goes, that's why its seperated from the rest of the crypto world to me.
One of these days, I'm gonna force myself to buy an NFT; I dont get it, but fk if I'm gonna get left behind by a bunch of newer millianials and gen-z'ers. I do see how it could replace the current equity exchange system at some point, but it doesnt seem close at all; and I just dont see a reason to buy ownership of a 3d modeled toy.
This post was edited on 12/4/21 at 8:59 pm
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