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Message
re: I'm a simple man, explain to me why we "have to" raise the debt ceiling
Posted on 4/18/11 at 8:44 am to Cosmo
Posted on 4/18/11 at 8:44 am to Cosmo
quote:
World markets plunged as a Greek debt default loomed and China took another step to curb its runaway inflation.
LINK
World markets plunge when the GREEKS come close to defaulting - what do you think will happen if the biggest economy on the Earth defaults?
1
Posted on 4/18/11 at 8:49 am to OohPooPahDoo
quote:
you're willing to destroy the entire economy and your bank account just to make the Democrats say "uncle"
who is this "you" and what exactly is their plan?
Posted on 4/18/11 at 9:20 am to Shankopotomus
Shank...have your residential fees gone up since the April 1st bill was passed?
Just wondering if it did any good...
Just wondering if it did any good...
Posted on 4/18/11 at 9:44 am to lynxcat
quote:
it would basically have to be from medicaid, medicare, SS, and any other "entitlement program" because those sink about 70% of our budget.
Why the hell are Medicare and SS grouped in as the same "entitlements" as Medicaid or other gov't handouts? Working people pay into these programs their entire working career. How is that an entitlement similar to Medicaid? SS should've been privatised a long time ago. Medicare serves a distinct purpose for retirees that would be much more difficult to privatize. It shouldn't be that difficult.
Posted on 4/18/11 at 9:51 am to ScoopAndScore
quote:
Why the hell are Medicare and SS grouped in as the same "entitlements" as Medicaid or other gov't handouts?
Its mostly done by younger people who have zero respect for their elders. They don't really value the fact that the people receiving Social Security Retirement and Medicare paid into these programs their whole lives and held up their end of the bargain.
Posted on 4/18/11 at 9:57 am to Cosmo
quote:
Explain this in terms PJ or Kige could understand.
Posted on 4/18/11 at 10:40 am to OohPooPahDoo
We're confusing two (although related) similar issues.
Raising the debt ceiling means we're approving the borrowing of more money. This is no different than going to the bank and applying for a loan. If the bank says no, that simply means they don't think you can pay the loan back given your current income and other obligations. It does NOT mean that they will turn around and repossess the car and foreclose the house; so long as you're current on your payments you're fine.
Debt default; however, means that you are unable (or have no intention) to make payments that are currently or past due.
Posted on 4/18/11 at 10:46 am to OohPooPahDoo
quote:
What's more amazing is you're willing to destroy the entire economy and your bank account just to make the Democrats say "uncle"
we're going to have to bite this bullet some time
Posted on 4/18/11 at 11:04 am to Quidam65
quote:
Debt default; however, means that you are unable (or have no intention) to make payments that are currently or past due.
There's no reason to believe that if the ceiling is raised in May it won't result in default. It will certainly make the market believe that default could be imminent - and the market will respond accordingly by blasting treasuries to smitherines. In fact the cause and effect could get reversed - if the market thinks default is imminent, it will raise the price of borrowing for the treasury to absurd levels, which means it won't be able to replace old debt with new debt - inevitable default.
This post was edited on 4/18/11 at 11:05 am
Posted on 4/18/11 at 11:06 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
we're going to have to bite this bullet some time
I see no logic behind destroying the finances of most everyone on the planet because we are facing some long term solvency issues.
Posted on 4/18/11 at 11:10 am to OohPooPahDoo
quote:
I see no logic behind destroying the finances of most everyone on the planet because we are facing some long term solvency issues.
i like how you dehumanize the problem with a term like "long term solvency issues"
we have 6 things that need to be cut dramatically, across all government
1. medicare
2. welfare
3. social security
4. defense
5. medicaid
6. national health care
we have not even really begun to feel the brunt of the boomers on SS/Medicare, and we can't pay our debts as is
the US (and the world) will feel the brunt of this situation unless we cut spending
would you rather wait until the US has far lesser international economic impact to make the cuts? this way it will be nicer for everyone else
Posted on 4/18/11 at 11:15 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:Wow, now that's some feigned outrage! You can't dehumanize something that isn't a human.
i like how you dehumanize the problem with a term like "long term solvency issues"
quote:
we have 6 things that need to be cut dramatically, across all government
1. medicare
2. welfare
3. social security
4. defense
5. medicaid
6. national health care
OK, then I guess we'll just get everyone to agree on that before MAY.
quote:
we have not even really begun to feel the brunt of the boomers on SS/Medicare, and we can't pay our debts as is
Yes we can. The U.S. has never missed a debt payment.
quote:
would you rather wait until the US has far lesser international economic impact to make the cuts?
The issue here is whether or not the U.S. should send the market into a tail spin by refusing to up its debt ceiling.
Posted on 4/18/11 at 11:18 am to OohPooPahDoo
quote:
OK, then I guess we'll just get everyone to agree on that before MAY.
the problem is that congressmen weren't discussing these issues the past 3-4 years or so
quote:
Yes we can.
then why do we need to raise the debt ceiling?
quote:
The issue here is whether or not the U.S. should send the market into a tail spin by refusing to up its debt ceiling.
that's short-sighted thinking that got us into this do or die situation
if you want policy based on knee-jerk reactions, then we will always have a boogeyman waiting...until it is too late
Posted on 4/18/11 at 11:40 am to OohPooPahDoo
It's pretty much a cardinal rule around here not to bring politics to the money board. Make it stop 
Posted on 4/18/11 at 12:06 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
the problem is that congressmen weren't discussing these issues the past 3-4 years or so
That doesn't really mean they are going to be able to come to an agreement before May - in fact, it would seem to suggest the opposite.
quote:
then why do we need to raise the debt ceiling?
Because if we don't the U.S. won't be able to make its interest payments in the short term.
quote:
that's short-sighted thinking that got us into this do or die situation
THAT'S PRETTY MUCH WHAT IT IS
Do you understand that if the U.S. Treasury's obligations lose substantial value that you might not be able to get money out of your checking account? Has that sunk in?
This post was edited on 4/18/11 at 12:07 pm
Posted on 4/18/11 at 12:11 pm to OohPooPahDoo
quote:
Do you understand that if the U.S. Treasury's obligations lose substantial value that you might not be able to get money out of your checking account? Has that sunk in?
that will make me really pissed at my congressman
if enough people got pissed, maybe they would start to pay attention to what their elected representatives are doing
Posted on 4/18/11 at 12:13 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
that will make me really pissed at my congressman
if enough people got pissed, maybe they would start to pay attention to what their elected representatives are doing
It won't matter dude, we'll all be broke! The government won't be able to do dick about anything then because a) it won't be able to borrow and b) it will have no tax revenues because no one will have any income!
is that what you want?
Posted on 4/18/11 at 12:45 pm to OohPooPahDoo
You fail. If they don't raise the debt ceiling, the Fed will just create more dollars to pay off any debt payments. This is the advantage of borrwoing in your own currency, you can always make more. Every one keeps talking about debasing currencies and all this baloney right now, when you print to pay off debt like that, THAT is debasing a currency. Its still not default. This needs to go back on the right board.
ETA: All this junk and not even a single mention about S&P issuing a negative outlook? Come on guys.
ETA: All this junk and not even a single mention about S&P issuing a negative outlook? Come on guys.
This post was edited on 4/18/11 at 12:47 pm
Posted on 4/18/11 at 12:50 pm to kfizzle85
quote:
You fail. If they don't raise the debt ceiling, the Fed will just create more dollars to pay off any debt payments.
Sorry that's not how it works. The U.S. Treasury is only entitled to the Fed's profits - and after U.S. Treasuries tank, the Fed will take massive losses. quote:
ETA: All this junk and not even a single mention about S&P issuing a negative outlook?
I'd issue a negative outlook on U.S. Treasury obligations, too, with all these goons talking about not raising the debt ceiling. See what even a mention of it does?
This post was edited on 4/18/11 at 12:51 pm
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