re: Fed Investments of 9 Billion has a return of 17 Billion.

No. There is one difference. A possible ROI.


We have never and I mean that... never not done this.

Our gov has always spent money like that.


You may not like it, or agree with it. From bail outs to propping up needed industries, we have 100% done this from before our founding and from our founding til now.

Let’s walk through every major instance of the U.S. federal government owning, founding, or holding equity in businesses or business-like entities from 1776 to the present.

I’ll distinguish clearly between:

1-Direct equity ownership in private corporations (government literally owned stock).

2- Government corporations (entities wholly owned by the federal government, operating like businesses).

3- Special or emergency stakes (temporary or hybrid forms).

Here we go:

1. Bank of North America (1781)

Created under the Articles of Confederation at Robert Morris’s urging.

The U.S. government subscribed $250,000 of the bank’s initial stock (roughly half the capital).

2. First Bank of the United States (1791–1811)

Authorized by Congress under Hamilton’s plan.

Capital: $10 million; 20% owned by the U.S. government.
Interesting part of this is that those WERE voting shares. The Federal Gov had the right to appoint 5 people to the board out of the 25. Government sold its shares for a profit.

1816–1836: Second Bank of the United States

Charter enacted 1816.

Federal ownership: Again about 20%

1836–1900: Internal Improvements & Subsidies, Not Federal Equity

Granted land to railroads (esp. 1850s–1870s).

Chartered and regulated certain companies (like the transcontinental telegraph).

Left most public investment to states, which often subscribed stock in canals, turnpikes, and railroads.

1900–1930: Rise of Federal Government Corporations

1904- Panama Railroad Company.. 100% ownership by federal Gov.

1917- U.S. Shipping Board Emergency Fleet Corp. 100% owned by Federal Gov

1916- Federal Land Banks

1930s–1950s: New Deal and WWII Corporations

1932- Reconstruction Finance Corporation (RFC)

1933- Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA)

1934- Export–Import Bank (Ex-Im Bank)

1933- Commodity Credit Corporation

1950–1990: Cold War to Deregulation


Most wartime enterprises were sold back to the private sector after 1945.

Remaining major federal corporations:

TVA

FDIC

Ex-Im Bank

Postal Service (USPS, reorganized 1971)

Amtrak (1971) — quasi-public rail passenger company; government owns all preferred stock.

Government National Mortgage Association (Ginnie Mae) — created 1968, government-owned.

Federal Financing Bank (1973) — Treasury-owned financial corporation.

2008–2015: Crisis-Era Equity Ownership

Treasury bought stock and warrants in hundreds of banks (Capital Purchase Program).

Owned equity in major private corporations temporarily:

Citigroup, Bank of America, Wells Fargo (preferred stock & warrants)

AIG (took 79.9% equity stake temporarily)

General Motors (61% ownership after bankruptcy restructuring)

Chrysler (partial ownership)

All eventually sold; by 2014–2015 the federal government no longer held those shares.

Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac (since 2008)

Placed into federal conservatorship.

Treasury owns senior preferred stock + warrants for 79.9% of common stock.

Still under conservatorship today (2025) — so this remains ongoing federal equity ownership.

2000s–Present: Permanent Federal Corporations

U.S. Postal Service (USPS) 1971 National mail delivery.

Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) 1933 Power generation for the Southeast.

Amtrak (National Railroad Passenger Corp.) 1971 Passenger rail; Treasury owns all preferred shares.

Export–Import Bank 1934 Export financing.

Federal Financing Bank 1973 Centralized borrowing for federal agencies.

Commodity Credit Corporation (CCC) 1933 Agricultural price stabilization.

Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) 1974 Insures private pensions.

Overseas Private Investment Corporation (merged into DFC, 2019) 1971 Overseas development finance; successor U.S. International Development Finance Corp. (DFC) now government-owned.

FDIC 1933 Deposit insurance fund and resolution authority.
Ginnie Mae (GNMA) 1968 Guarantees mortgage-backed securities.

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Can you explain how it is different?

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The First Bank and modern bailouts look similar on paper, but they’re different in purpose. Hamilton’s bank built the foundation for a functioning market — a stable currency, public credit, and basic financial order. It was a one-time act of creation.

Modern bailouts, by contrast, step in after the fact to save existing players from the consequences of their own risk. One created capitalism; the other distorts it. That’s the difference between nation-building and damage control.

I think we’ve circled the same debate that’s been with us since Hamilton and Jefferson — stability versus purity. There’s always a trade-off between saving the system and letting it cleanse itself.

I lean toward letting markets adjust, because every bailout trades long-term discipline for short-term comfort. It may keep the lights on, but it dims accountability.

Either way, it’s not a new argument — just another chapter in the same one our founders started. Appreciate the thoughtful exchange.

quote:

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Because it’s anti-capitalist, anti-free market bullshite that’s the first step down the path to communism?

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This. Politicians shouldn't be buying individual shares either.