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Deutsche Bank Litigation / Bailout Watch

Posted on 9/27/16 at 6:44 am
Posted by Doc Fenton
New York, NY
Member since Feb 2007
52698 posts
Posted on 9/27/16 at 6:44 am
European banks have been in trouble for a while, but now it's looking like the walls are starting to close in around Deutsche Bank. So in honor of my "Lehman Watch Thread" from August 21, 2008, I now present you with a DB Bailout Watch Thread.

Bloomberg (9/26): " Bonds Rally, Stocks Drop Before Debate as Deutsche Bank Tumbles"
Bloomberg (9/26): " Deutsche Bank Slumps as Investors Question Lender’s Health"

Bloomberg (9/26): " Germany Will Rescue Deutsche Bank If Necessary, Allianz Says"
quote:

The German government will have to bail out Deutsche Bank AG if its financial situation gets bad enough, Allianz Global Investors AG Chief Investment Officer Andreas Utermann said.

“I don’t buy at all what’s coming out of Germany in terms of Germany not wanting to step in ultimately if Deutsche Bank was really in trouble ,” Utermann said Monday in a Bloomberg Television interview with Francine Lacqua and Tom Keene. “It’s too important for the German economy.”


Bloomberg (9/26): " Deutsche Bank Returns to Haunt Merkel in an Election Year"
quote:

“It’s unimaginable that we would help Deutsche Bank with taxpayers’ money,” Hans Michelbach, a senior lawmaker in Merkel’s Christian Democrat-led bloc, said in an interview. “It would lead to a public outcry. The political establishment would lose credibility if the government jumped in.”

For Merkel, any whiff of government action would be electorally toxic just as she faces a backlash against her refugee policy, unrest in her party bloc and slumping poll ratings.


Telegraph (9/26): " The Deutsche Bank crisis could take Angela Merkel down – and the Euro"
quote:

And yet it has become increasingly hard to ignore the slow-motion car crash that is Deutsche Bank, or to avoid the conclusion that something very nasty is developing at what was once seen as Europe’s strongest financial institution. Its shares have been in free-fall for a year, touching a new low of 10.7 euros on Monday, down from 27 euros a year ago. Over the weekend, the German Chancellor Angela Merkel waded into the mess, briefing that there could be no government bail-out of the bank.

But hold on. Surely that is an extra-ordinary decision? If the German government does not stand behind the bank, then inevitably all its counter-parties – the other banks and institutions it deals with – are going to start feeling very nervous about trading with it. As we know from 2008, once confidence starts to evaporate, a bank is in big, big trouble. In fact, if Deutsche does go down, it is looking increasingly likely that it will take Merkel with it – and quite possibly the euro as well.


EFinancialCareers (9/27): " Morning Coffee: This may be the end of Deutsche Bank as you know it. The archetypal upper-middle class banker"
quote:

Deutsche Bank is not what it was. It’s not just the 30 year low in the share price. It’s not just the new market cap way (way) below organizations that would once have been considered its inferior. Nor is it Angela Merkel’s suggestion that Deutsche is on its own and has no hope of being bailed out by the German government before the national election in September 2017. It is – as the Financial Times helpfully points out – that, unless Brexit is made very easy indeed, there’s no way now that Deutsche will be able to separately capitalize investment banks based in London and Germany. The investment bank will have to move to Frankfurt; bye-bye London Wall.

Before Deutsche’s London investment bankers prepare to lose their jobs or decamp to Bad Homburg, however, it’s worth considering the extent to which Deutsche’s travails threaten to become an economic and political rather than a purely financial issue. In a worst case scenario, the Telegraph argues that Deutsche could take down Angela Merkel and – or – the edifice of the European Union.

If confidence in Deutsche Bank evaporates and Merkel refuses to stand behind the bank, the Telegraph says all hell could be let loose. After all, the IMF says Deutsche is the key source of systemic risk in the global banking sector with J.P. Morgan, HSBC, BNP Paribas and others all heavily exposed to it. The ensuing economic chaos would be unlikely to ingratiate Merkel with the German electorate.



Just reading the tea leaves, I'd say this situation seems to be escalating rather quickly, and that Merkel will be forced to flip-flop on her earlier statements and provide some sort of bailout to Deutsche Bank.
This post was edited on 9/29/16 at 9:04 pm
Posted by GREENHEAD22
Member since Nov 2009
19595 posts
Posted on 9/27/16 at 8:56 am to
Is this the start of a major correction?
Posted by TigerDeBaiter
Member since Dec 2010
10265 posts
Posted on 9/27/16 at 10:19 am to
I agree with you.

I brought it up as a couple months ago and was ridiculed. Typical of the boards blind faith in world Central Banks... whatever.

#nothingtoseehere
Posted by b-rab2
N. Louisiana
Member since Dec 2005
12576 posts
Posted on 9/27/16 at 10:21 am to
I don't think. Not yet...
Posted by b-rab2
N. Louisiana
Member since Dec 2005
12576 posts
Posted on 9/27/16 at 10:31 am to
speaking on the subject of a correction. I do believe one is coming.. If the market corrects 20%, how do bonds fair (bond funds)? I'm sure they'll go down a little but I should be ok to park some cash in them since it's an option in my 401k. What do you say Doc Fenton?
Posted by dabigfella
Member since Mar 2016
6687 posts
Posted on 9/27/16 at 10:52 am to
Hopefully this our big catalyst down for s corrections are you short db?
Posted by dabigfella
Member since Mar 2016
6687 posts
Posted on 9/27/16 at 11:39 am to
do you see this becoming like a sub $1 stock and just wiping out markets with it? It just seems like they need a huge capital raise and will have to do it at an insanely low price to get it through. There was alot of activity on the put side here for oct and april but I really dont see any way they let DB go bankrupt, I know merkel would look like a hypocrite bailing them out and not italian and greek banks but I just cant see it.
This post was edited on 9/27/16 at 2:15 pm
Posted by Iowa Golfer
Heaven
Member since Dec 2013
10230 posts
Posted on 9/27/16 at 3:35 pm to
quote:

I agree with you. I brought it up as a couple months ago and was ridiculed. Typical of the boards blind faith in world Central Banks... whatever.


Not by me. When central bankers openly discuss their currency policy propping a carry trade, I make note. And I commented about it on here. And when the inevitable happens, I'll bump the thread.

It mostly went by unnoticed, except a couple of requests for a link which I provided. But on the PB, there is an LSU Graduate School of Banking type who made some derogatory comments, so I'll bump it in his honor. You'd think someone involved in that industry would notice something like this, not some pig farmer like me from Iowa.
Posted by TigerDeBaiter
Member since Dec 2010
10265 posts
Posted on 9/27/16 at 5:00 pm to
quote:

do you see this becoming like a sub $1 stock and just wiping out markets with it? It just seems like they need a huge capital raise and will have to do it at an insanely low price to get it through. There was alot of activity on the put side here for oct and april but I really dont see any way they let DB go bankrupt, I know merkel would look like a hypocrite bailing them out and not italian and greek banks but I just cant see it.



It have no idea what the stock price will be. Left to fend for itself it would almost assuredly go to zero. I believe they are going to need some sort of bailout/government sponsored "breakup" or whatever... and I agree, they wont let this toxic pig go belly up even though it probably should.

#toobigtofail

or...

#tobigtobail

Posted by TigerDeBaiter
Member since Dec 2010
10265 posts
Posted on 9/27/16 at 5:01 pm to
Posted by marchballer
The Greatest Country on Earth
Member since Aug 2008
4118 posts
Posted on 9/27/16 at 7:04 pm to
I agree. DB is likely the stimulus for a correction. Corporate Earnings will have decreased 6 straight quarters if predictions for next quarter holds. Oil is in trouble after the Saudi-Iran no deal today. Bank of Japan can't do anything for the life of them. With interest rates this low, governments will have to provide some massive bailouts or inject helicopter money into the markets in order to get things rolling again. I'm going cash soon. The correction could be rough.
Posted by dabigfella
Member since Mar 2016
6687 posts
Posted on 9/27/16 at 9:48 pm to
reading around tonight, alot of people are saying its a crowded short trade, but the % of the float short is miniscule? Am I missing something? This isnt tesla with 25% short. What gives?
Posted by Doc Fenton
New York, NY
Member since Feb 2007
52698 posts
Posted on 9/27/16 at 10:28 pm to
quote:

Is this the start of a major correction?


I'd say it has the potential to be a trigger for one, but the more certain argument would be that it would just cause European stock prices to slump for a while.

The DAX index has mostly gone sideways for the past 2 years, but given the rumblings we keep seeing in the press, I would expect the DAX to slump a bit over the next 6 months.

As to how big of an impact a potential DB bailout will have on the S&P 500 over here in the U.S., it's hard to say. About a year ago, we saw a major collapse of Chinese equity and commodity markets, which caused a global commodity slump and led to a correction in the S&P 500 of over 10%. The S&P 500 quickly recovered those losses though, and has continued to "melt up" in the wake of unexpectedly loose monetary decisions from the FRB, BOE, and BOJ.
Posted by Doc Fenton
New York, NY
Member since Feb 2007
52698 posts
Posted on 9/27/16 at 10:35 pm to
quote:

If the market corrects 20%, how do bonds fair (bond funds)?


IDK. It's an unusual situation we're in now, because there is no room for the Fed to push interest rates any lower in the event of a recession. There are some indications that returns for bonds may be more correlated to equities in the near-term than is normally the case, and core inflation has been increasing. Then again, it seems like the yield on U.S. Treasuries has more room to go down.
Posted by Doc Fenton
New York, NY
Member since Feb 2007
52698 posts
Posted on 9/27/16 at 10:36 pm to
No. I'm still playing around with a short position on SPX, but it seems like we've been stuck in a bull-bear stalemate for an eternity.
Posted by LSUFanHouston
NOLA
Member since Jul 2009
37088 posts
Posted on 9/27/16 at 10:38 pm to
Thanks Doc, for posting all of this. This is an area where I know I am nowhere near the smartest in the room... I'm probably closer to the dumbest in the room =)

So I'll simply say this. It's hard to believe Deutsche Bank could fail, or could hurt enough to require government intervention. Of course, one often said the same thing about the rib-rock solidness of Lehman.
Posted by Doc Fenton
New York, NY
Member since Feb 2007
52698 posts
Posted on 9/27/16 at 10:41 pm to
quote:

Corporate Earnings will have decreased 6 straight quarters if predictions for next quarter holds.


Yeah, I've been watching this pretty closely. I'll probably have more to say about this soon. In the meantime, Hussman Funds has put out a couple of incredibly good weekly market comments lately:

" Party Like It's 1999 (and 1929)" (9/12)

" Structural Growth and Dope Dealers on Speed-Dial" (9/26)
Posted by Doc Fenton
New York, NY
Member since Feb 2007
52698 posts
Posted on 9/27/16 at 10:54 pm to
Visual Capitalist had a pretty good run-down of what's causing DB's woes, which they published back on July 8: " The Epic Collapse of Deutsche Bank."

quote:

THE BEGINNING OF THE END

If the deaths of Lehman Brothers and Bear Stearns were quick and painless, the coming demise of Deutsche Bank has been long, drawn out, and painful.

In recent times, Deutsche Bank’s investment banking division has been among the largest in the world, comparable in size to Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Bank of America, and Citigroup. However, unlike those other names, Deutsche Bank has been walking wounded since the Financial Crisis, and the German bank has never been able to fully recover.

It’s ironic, because in 2009, the company’s CEO Josef Ackermann boldly proclaimed that Deutsche Bank had plenty of capital, and that it was weathering the crisis better than its competitors.

It turned out, however, that the bank was actually hiding $12 billion in losses to avoid a government bailout. Meanwhile, much of the money the bank did make during this turbulent time in the markets stemmed from the manipulation of Libor rates. Those “wins” were short-lived, since the eventual fine to end the Libor probe would be a record-setting $2.5 billion.

The bank finally had to admit that it actually needed more capital.

...


I'll be honest, it's still hard for me to figure out what's going on here. I know that the headlines tend to focus on the litigation surrounding LIBOR rate fixing penalties, as well as penalties for evading U.S. sanctions on certain countries--but on a more fundamental level, the bank appears to have gotten over-leveraged, and then suffered under very poor risk management for its derivatives books. Regarding what positions the bank was taking on derivatives that were causing additional losses... that's the part I still don't know.

Maybe it's not related to derivatives at all. Maybe it really is just a function of massive litigation losses, scandals, and the general malaise of the European banking sector. Other EU-area banks aren't doing that well either, simply because there is absolutely nothing going and no loans to make in most European economies.
Posted by dabigfella
Member since Mar 2016
6687 posts
Posted on 9/27/16 at 11:06 pm to
Europe in general is only going to get worse, these migrants are literally turning it into a 3rd world country. I was in paris like 4 months ago and was blown away by how many homeless migrants were on the streets. I really cant see how europe in general improves in the coming decade, I really believe with their high tax socialist policies all over europe combined with these migrants that in the end the continent will be a wasteland in 15 years or sooner
Posted by GenesChin
The Promise Land
Member since Feb 2012
37706 posts
Posted on 9/28/16 at 8:42 am to
quote:

I was in paris like 4 months ago and was blown away by how many homeless migrants were on the streets.



Taking in migrants isn't a death sentence. Taking in migrants without a proper cultural assimilation + work opportunities might as well be lighting up the chair yourself though
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