Started By
Message

re: Buy and hold

Posted on 4/3/10 at 11:19 am to
Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
124542 posts
Posted on 4/3/10 at 11:19 am to
quote:

Seems to be the general consensus around here that this is stupid
I'd bet in reality that's less true than you surmise. E.g., despite claims of fortunes being made day-trading penny stock options, most experienced folks would love nothing more than picking a long-term winner, and riding it up. Certainly from a tax strategy that's the ticket esp in higher income scenarios.

Need to be pragmatic though. The market has changed some over the past 10 years, or so it seems. Volitility of individual securities makes trading more profitable in many cases if you follow things closely. Off-hand that's more the case now than in the 1990's when buying-and-holding quality stocks was singularly a great strategy.

Basically as broad market inclines flatten, buy-and-hold returns will trail off as well. Under those circumstances, dollar cost averaging won't make a huge difference. Buying dips to build a position will. Likewise, selling partial positions during short term run-ups will boost returns and mitigate risk without vacating an intended long term position or giving up tax advantages. That sort of blended long term-short term strategy might be what the reference in the OP cited. Wasn't clear though.
Posted by Zilla
Member since Jul 2005
10599 posts
Posted on 4/3/10 at 9:49 pm to
only thing I will add is :

Often, the trading strategy that failed over the previous "investing cycle" (decade?), is usually the one that will work over the next....

I like both strategies depending on the stock
Posted by JWS3
Baton Rouge
Member since Jun 2008
2502 posts
Posted on 4/4/10 at 9:44 pm to
Is it realistic for an individual with limited time to expect returns greater than mutual funds that have hundreds of people doing research and analysis? It does not seem likely to me, and since I have zero interest in finance, and limited time I put everything in mutual funds and move things around every few years. I have been holding some funds for over 25 years. Sure in principle we should sell on the peaks and buy in the dips, but once again if it were so simple and obvious why havn't the fund managers mastered it?
Posted by kfizzle85
Member since Dec 2005
22022 posts
Posted on 4/4/10 at 10:20 pm to
To beat mutual funds? Yes, by using ETFs that have no loads and accomplish the same thing. I thought this recent article was pretty interesting.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
124542 posts
Posted on 4/5/10 at 3:01 am to
quote:

Is it realistic for an individual with limited time to expect returns greater than mutual funds that have hundreds of people doing research and analysis?
Probably not, but of course it depends on your choice of fund. In terms of MFs, Zilla's comment above is also apropos
quote:

Often, the trading strategy that failed over the previous "investing cycle" (decade?), is usually the one that will work over the next....
Apply something similar to picking Funds and it can really pay off.
Compare various funds with good management and superior market performance in their category. (Morningstar Ratings, Money Magazine's Top Funds, etc) Then, of those funds, look for one or two coming off an underperforming year. 9 times out of 10, those funds will out-perform in the upcoming year or two.



It is worth noting though,
that in certain situations it is very possible that even "an individual with limited time could still expect returns greater than mutual funds."
There can be challenging tax issues with Mutual Funds (especially in down markets) depending on the fund's transactions c/w its monetary flow (shareholder confidence).
In that case kfizzle's suggestion re: ETF's is Spot On. In terms of tax advantages, "buying and holding" ETFs has it all over most MFs, and risk is mitigated vs holding a few individual stocks. It's an issue that will have variable effect based on markets, tax law, and individual tax liability, but definitely requires consideration.

Becomes an issue of which is better:
(1) A Mutual Fund returning 15%, or
(2) an ETF returning 12%?

Seems like a silly question until tax is considered.
If the MF carries a 40% tax liability d/t short term transactions vs a buy and hold ETF at about 22%, the after-tax return on the "lower performing" ETF is actually 10% better than the MF.
This post was edited on 4/5/10 at 8:54 am
Posted by tirebiter
7K R&G chile land aka SF
Member since Oct 2006
9372 posts
Posted on 4/5/10 at 11:10 am to
quote:

Compare various funds with good management and superior market performance in their category. (Morningstar Ratings,


Numerous studies have been conducted regarding M* rankings. The vast majority of 4 & 5 star funds lag in future years as hot money finds the funds after the run up and managers struggle with fund bloat. Investors can do what they want, but it is sensible to me to use low cost index funds for at least half of ones equity holdings to ensure market returns and reduce costs, especially small cap international, etc, that are very expensive to access through actively managed funds and maintain balance in one's portfolio, a concern for those who have significant assets. It's a lot more difficult to recover from high equity exposure portfolios that get smoked compared to one's with more diversified holdings, ie fixed income and other less traditional assets.

There is no substitute to buying equity when it is cheap, and holding cash or ST bonds in your portfolio provides immediate access to good buys. I still think those that have no interest will benefit most from 40/60 to 60/40 equity to fixed income range as they are less prone to taking knee jerk moves after getting a YE statement showing their life long investments are down 35%. There is a reason for investor returns in funds being significantly lower than the funds' returns, and it is bad timing and rash decisions for the most part.
Posted by tirebiter
7K R&G chile land aka SF
Member since Oct 2006
9372 posts
Posted on 4/5/10 at 11:18 am to
quote:

recent article


I often believe Rick is too aggressive with equity allocations for his clientele and he is totally against alternative investments, especially commodities, but his advice overall is quite similar to J. Bogle's. He likes HY funds, I don't see the need. Vanguard's HY muni fund has been a better performer on a risk adjusted basis than the corporate HY fund, but then again, I don't manage people's money for a living.
Posted by kfizzle85
Member since Dec 2005
22022 posts
Posted on 4/6/10 at 4:57 pm to
Posted by toddts
Fort Worth, TX
Member since Feb 2005
62 posts
Posted on 4/7/10 at 3:09 pm to
Redstick - are you still a buy on LPIH right now at $2.69 +/-?? Or would you wait for it to go down below the $2.50 mark??

Reading your comments in your posted threads, very intriguing and looks like a good find here. Thanks in advance for your insight.

Also, to give you a research project on a company that you may/may not find interesting, check out IRLD. Let me know what you think...

Posted by amsterdam
In His Word
Member since Jul 2008
1033 posts
Posted on 4/8/10 at 10:40 am to
quote:

Why hold dips? Why take two steps forward and one step backward over and over again? Why not take two steps forward, pause, and then wait until it's time for you to take another two steps forward.


Completely agree. You should always dump your stock the day it hits a high, and buy another the day it hits a low. If you cant find a good investment at the bottom, pause until you do. Repeat process and become rich.

Btw, can you forward me to the site on the internet, book, etc. that will tell me how to predict this ahead of time. Cause as far as I can tell unless I know ahead of time what a stock will do, the above strategy will not work.

Thanks in advance
Posted by Zilla
Member since Jul 2005
10599 posts
Posted on 4/8/10 at 10:45 am to
Posted by amsterdam
In His Word
Member since Jul 2008
1033 posts
Posted on 4/8/10 at 11:08 am to
I find the last conclusion on slide 15 which is the so called "death of buy and hold for stocks" jarring and out of place simply b/c this conclusion does not follow from the above information. It does little to disuade investors that stock buying and holding is forever a dead strategy.

I once once heard a quote from Mark Twain that says that "although history doesnt repeat itself often it ryhmes." How true.

Your link reminds me of the famous August 1979 Business Week cover story that trumpted "Death of Equities". It went on to describe how inflation was destroying the stock market. It qouted Alan Boyd Coleman, Dean of SMU Business School as saying, "The old rules no longer apply. We are entering a new paradigm, what is always been is never more..." so on and so on, you get the picture. Anyway, a very convincing case was laid out as to why you should steer clear of stocks.

A few years later, one of the greatest bull markets ever emerged...
Posted by amsterdam
In His Word
Member since Jul 2008
1033 posts
Posted on 4/8/10 at 11:11 am to


Thanks a million! Literally! This "Technical Analysis" you speak of can acurately predict the precise swings of the stock market?!! Truly incredible. How come every one does not employ this amazing strategy???
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 4/8/10 at 11:24 am to
You're not even worthy of responding to, other than to tell you that you're not even worthy of responding to. Get serious and then we can talk. Grossly mischaracterize what I say and you will continue to be written off.
This post was edited on 4/8/10 at 11:25 am
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 4/8/10 at 12:01 pm to
quote:

Redstick - are you still a buy on LPIH right now at $2.69


Yes, I would buy 2.50, or 2.69, or 3.00, or 4.00, or 5.50, because I think the fair market value for this issue is at least 6.50, based off of fully diluted EPS guidance for FY'11 (which begins July 1) of .65. The reason the FMV is likely higher is because it is unlikely that their outstanding warrants will all be exercised in FY'11, which gives me an EPS estimate for that FY of .71, with the upper outlier being .75.

The company has applied to be listed on the AMEX. They meet all of those requirements. I think we can expect to be listed on that exchange in the next 120 days Once listed there, I think we will be rewarded a P/E of at least 10, which is where I derive the 6.50 figure.

All of this is from the standpoint of someone who is buying this one for the long(er) term. Short-term swings should be carried out according to your own discretion.

This is one of the few that I am "buy-and-hold" on, as I've made very clear.

IRLD I will look into. But most of the OTCBB stocks that I purchase are Chinese and/or other foreign companies. The OTCBB exchange is a popular exchange for foreign companies as it gives them a way to get around the outrageous listing fees required of foreign companies if they choose to be listed on one of the big boards (see Nintendo, for example). As for American companies who are listed on the OTCBB, I tend to stay away from with the exception of a few diamonds in the rough, as there's really no reason for any legitimate company not to be fully reporting, and this such occurrence is often the case with many of these micro-cap companies.

Is IRLD fully reporting? Are their financials audited? How far along in the mining cycle are they? What is their history re: dilution? And do they have the funds they need to continue operation, or will they need to dilute in the future?
This post was edited on 4/8/10 at 12:06 pm
Posted by amsterdam
In His Word
Member since Jul 2008
1033 posts
Posted on 4/8/10 at 12:15 pm to
Not sure I understand where I mischaraterize your stance? I admit I poked fun at your assumption that basically timing the market is a valid strategy as you imply by saying things like...
quote:

Why hold dips? Why take two steps forward and one step backward over and over again? Why not take two steps forward, pause, and then wait until it's time for you to take another two steps forward. Buy and hold investing is a product of the pre-Internet, pre-online trading account investor of the 80s and earlier.


or with...

quote:

But that type of investing is quickly going the way of the dinosaur when it comes to individual investors.


You then seem to retrace your opinion by qualifying it with...

quote:

I will say that if you are investing with a huge account and are not an active trader and/or do not have the time to babysit a 30-stock watchlist, then, yes, buy and hold investing may be ideal for you.


Which to me sounds like a description of the overwhelming majority of individual investors who coincidentally DO invest with a buy and hold strategy.
So it sounds like your advice is pertinent to the few big time investors, who have the ability and desire to micromanage their portfolio. And what is your advice to these willing few??To my amusement you promote TA as a "fundamentally" sound (albiet in a wierd way) way to invest succesfully. As if youve discovered something new.

Feel free to point out my flawed representation of your statement.



Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 4/8/10 at 12:27 pm to
quote:

You should always dump your stock the day it hits a high, and buy another the day it hits a low.


This is where you mischaracterized what I said.

I never retraced anything. I identified two classes of investors. The individual investor who should employ TA (which is growing rapidly). And the investor who would rather his portfolio be invested via some small-shop finance firm by some guy making 70k who's yet to pull his first 10-bagger from the market.

Look, man, I'm not here to convert you over to finding value in TA. I myself have said numerous times that any healthy investment strategy includes both TA and FA. You do what you do and I'll do what I do. End of discussion. But there is not a chance in hell I will ever consider investing my money with one of your types.

EDIT: I tell you what. Tell me a stock you think is a good buy. Then tell me why. Then tell me at which price you think is a good entry. I'll follow suit and we'll see who's right.

This post was edited on 4/8/10 at 12:29 pm
Posted by kfizzle85
Member since Dec 2005
22022 posts
Posted on 4/8/10 at 12:30 pm to
Even though you haven't been on here recently, per usual, your response completely misses the point of the post. Congratulations.
Posted by kfizzle85
Member since Dec 2005
22022 posts
Posted on 4/8/10 at 12:31 pm to
Brah, amsterdam wouldn't know FA if it slapped him in the face.
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 4/8/10 at 12:35 pm to
I'm not expecting much. But let's put our money where our mouths are. amsterdam, I'm challenging you to give me your no. 1 pick, why it is your no. 1 pick, and which price you think is a good entry.
This post was edited on 4/8/10 at 12:36 pm
first pageprev pagePage 2 of 4Next pagelast page

Back to top
logoFollow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News
Follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram to get the latest updates on LSU Football and Recruiting.

FacebookTwitterInstagram