re: Who Was a Worse LSU Coach?

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Doc Fenton as I have pointed out on this forum many times.....

there is little or near no talent coming out of Louisiana the years Archer is the coach.

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I'm still not buying this.

Let's set aside the national programs coming into Louisiana and stealing top recruits. LSU did a horrible job recruiting from '87 to '90 (i.e., the Archer years), even relative to other schools in the state!

Hell, even nearby SWAC schools were getting more stars than LSU was:

NFL draftees from LSU vs. nearby SWAC, '92-'94
Texas Southern, 5
Jackson State, 5
LSU, 4
Southern, 3
Grambling State, 3
Alcorn State, 3
Miss. Valley State, 2
Alabama A&M, 2
Alabama State, 2

That's 25 for the 8 nearby SWAC schools, and 4 for LSU. Well, I suppose you could argue that had something to do with the new academic requirements.

Okay, then, so maybe LSU was losing out to national powers who were breaking recruiting rules, and maybe the SWAC schools had a leg up due to new academic rules. You still have to contend with the other in-state schools.

NFL draftees from Louisiana schools, '92-'94
UL-Monroe, 6
Louisiana Tech, 5
LSU, 4
Southern, 3
Grambling State, 3
Northwestern State, 2
McNeese State, 1
UL-Lafayette, 1
Tulane, 1

Why is LSU #3 here? Even in the time span from '92 to '95, ULM still beats LSU. Were the academic standards that much harder at Tech or ULM in the late 80's than LSU? Did the LSU recruiting staff evaluate any of these guys at all, or did they just spend their time crying over spilt milk and players lost to Michigan, FSU, etc.? It's not as if anybody on LSU's staff had to work very hard to sign Kinchen or Mawae.

Heck, you can look at other nearby schools in the Gulf Coast region too. Why did Baylor, Houston, Texas A&M, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, Southern Miss, etc., all seem to have a resurgence in talent in the late 80's and early 90's, while LSU went the other direction? I tend to think that their relative success, and LSU's lack of success, are directly related.

Let's take out the SEC teams, and just look at the others...

NFL draftees, '92-'94
Texas A&M, 16
Baylor, 8
Houston, 7
Southern Miss, 4
LSU, 4
Rice, 2

Ouch. You can add LSU's 2 draftees in '95, and it doesn't look much better...

NFL draftees, '92-'95
Texas A&M, 18
Baylor, 9
Houston, 8
LSU, 6
Southern Miss, 4
Rice, 2

Wow. You'll have to excuse me if I just don't buy into the "local talent just happened to be depleted during Archer's 4 years as a coach" argument.

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Fact: Bill hated to recruit.

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And that certainly didn't help in the spring of 1987, but that's only one year. Arnsparger did put together phenomenal classes in his early years, and he can't be blamed for dropping the ball several seasons into Archer's career, when LSU had THE BEST record in the SEC over the last 5 seasons.

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Curly's list of recruits lost are a whos who of college football.

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Well, this may be true, but it's hardly a compliment to Archer to say Hallman was terrible. Hallman had to recruit after the crappy seasons from 1990-94. How easy do you think that was?

I mean, people bitch about how LSU lost to terrible teams during those years, but Hallman was clearly outmanned talent-wise. He was not a good coach, but it still must be said of the man--he got his teams to play with enough heart to be competitive and close against teams with vastly superior talent. The Tigers were talent-less, but tough as nails back then. I mean, LSU sure as shite didn't play Tepper-ball during the Curly years. At least we can say that about them.

I'm not saying Curly didn't suck, but he didn't cause the program to drop off a cliff like Archer or Laval did. True, LSU never got more than 3 NFL draftees in any spring from 1991 to 2001, but DiNardo could have never have gone 25-9-1 during his first 3 years if Hallman had left the program in worse shape than Archer did, and that's the bottom line.

Hallman recruited his first class in 1991 and only 2 losing seasons.

And as I pointed out above no recruit form Louisiana who signed out of state between 1987 and 1990 made All American.


Hallman is our coach form 1991, 92, 93, 94.

And goes:

5-6
2-9
5-6
4-7

and sitting on the bench is many players who would have played under Archer. Odel never got a fair shack form Curly and he isn't the only player.

Hallman was far to busy doing other things than coach the players up. And how can you ever have a good season playing qb, qb who will play qb for near 4 years.

1994 Coach: Curley Hallman Record: 4-7-0
Opponent Name Att. Comp Int Yards TD Rating
Texas A&M Jamie Howard 28 16 1 226 0
Miss St. Jamie Howard 27 14 3 237 2
Auburn Jamie Howard 41 18 6 280 1
South Carolina Jamie Howard 16 7 2 53 1
Florida Melvin Hill 18 11 3 128 0
Kentucky Jamie Howard 5 1 1 5 0
Ole Miss Melvin Hill 2 2 0 18 0
Alabama Jamie Howard 21 7 0 117 0
Southern Miss. Jamie Howard 43 23 2 314 2
Tulane Jamie Howard 19 14 2 179 2
Arkansas Jamie Howard 24 14 0 223 2

1993 Coach: Curley Hallman Record: 5-6-0
Opponent Name Att. Comp Int Yards TD Rating
Texas A&M Jamie Howard 27 5 3 61 0
Miss St. Jamie Howard 39 21 1 248 1
Auburn Jamie Howard 36 9 1 103 0
Tennessee Jamie Howard 29 16 0 184 2
Utah St. Jamie Howard 20 10 2 236 1
Florida Jamie Howard 27 15 2 141 0
Kentucky Jamie Howard 25 12 1 149 1
Ole Miss Jamie Howard 27 12 2 152 1
Alabama Jamie Howard 10 3 0 16 0
Tulane Jamie Howard 8 3 0 29 0
Arkansas Chad Loup 43 28 2 339 1


1992 Coach: Curley Hallman Record: 2-9-0
Opponent Name Att. Comp Int Yards TD Rating
Texas A&M Chad Loup 13 6 2 81 0
Miss St. Chad Loup 8 5 0 44 0
Auburn Jesse Daigle 5 2 1 5 0
Tennessee Jamie Howard 17 7 1 86 0
Utah St. Jamie Howard 23 10 1 124 0
Florida Jamie Howard 39 20 1 339 2
Kentucky Jamie Howard 23 16 1 218 1
Ole Miss Jamie Howard 34 11 2 110 0
Alabama Jamie Howard 25 14 3 162 0
Tulane Chad Loup 18 9 1 85 1
Arkansas Chad Loup 12 7 0 63 0

















1991 Coach: Curley Hallman Record: 5-6-0
Opponent Name Att. Comp Int Yards TD Rating
Georgia Chad Loup 16 8 1 84 1
Texas A&M Chad Loup 16 6 2 68 1
Vanderbilt Jesse Daigle 7 5 0 64 0
Florida Jesse Daigle 15 5 0 65 0
Arkansas St. Jesse Daigle 18 13 0 143 2
Kentucky Chad Loup 34 20 1 257 2
Florida St. Chad Loup 33 17 1 233 1
Ole Miss Chad Loup 24 17 2 182 0
Alabama Chad Loup 12 8 1 55 1
Miss St. Jesse Daigle 44 25 0 394 3
Tulane Jesse Daigle 6 4 1 64 0

That shows you something of the staff and Hallman.

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I'm not saying Curly didn't suck, but he didn't cause the program to drop off a cliff like Archer or Laval did.

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I totally agree with you Doc. I think Smoke and Archer should be just as despised as Curly is.

Doc, your evaluation of talent is actually flawed to a degree.

The NFL numbers you use are much atributed to coaches developing talent. Do you think Warrick Dunn would have flourished and become the star he is under Hallman???? No. I watched him ruin several ultra talented kids. And, the only reason Dunn didn't come to LSU is b/c Hallman wouldn't allow him to tend to his siblings while on the team. He then felt "if thats the case, I'll go to a successful program."

Archer's recruiting classes of '88 & '89 were VERY solid. In both years they were ranked in the top 10.......albeit recruiting rankings were in their infancy then with Max Emfinger being the most reputable. How do I know this? I was an Emfinger All-American and signed with LSU. Sure, we did lose a few to Miami, Michigan, etc. but the bulk of the top ranked recruits went to LSU. Research the Super Dozen lists and you will see.

I was exposed to Archer and Hallman, and Hallman wasn't near the coach Archer was. It was humorous to see Hudson get in Dale Brown's face after the Broussard brawl (spooky night), but that is where any leadship stopped.

It is interesting to see all of your perspectives who had no sense of what was happening from the inside. Diagnosing the illness was easier (and more accurate) for me.

Fun fact: Did any of you know of Hallman painting over all of the historical information throughout the player areas? "We're gonna start our own traditions" he'd say/yell......
Dinardo did, at a minimum, understand what The Magic meant for success.

Hallman, hands down.

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Doc, your evaluation of talent is actually flawed to a degree.

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I know, but really I was just trying to get to the bottom of this story, as the excuse that "there was no local talent those years" just doesn't seem to fit the facts. I do appreciate your insight very much, as I was way too young at the time to have any real understanding of why LSU got so bad all of a sudden.

I understand that the "developing NFL talent" criticism is valid, but only to a certain degree (unless players were just being run off or going to jail or whatever). I mean, what makes good draft potential besides just having a good physical regimen and discipline over your 4-5 college years? I know the NFL was drafting several D2/D3 players a year in those days, and I certainly think that a player like Warrick would have had the discipline to prepare his body for the NFL wherever he went to college--whether it was Lenoir-Rhine, Nicholls State, or Alabama A&M.

It's shocking to hear that the '88 class was highly prized, when looking through the list ( LINK), the only names that stand out to me are Derriel McCorvey and David Walkup.

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Fun fact: Did any of you know of Hallman painting over all of the historical information throughout the player areas?

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Yes, I did!

(But the media would be the first to call that moment a stroke of genius if it would have worked.)

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Dinardo did, at a minimum, understand what The Magic meant for success.

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Yes, he did!

He did not seem to understand, however, that you can't run a major organization by always trying to play the nice guy, to all your friends and players, all of the time.

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It was humorous to see Hudson get in Dale Brown's face after the Broussard brawl (spooky night)...

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It's been a long time since I've heard anyone talk about that...

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It is interesting to see all of your perspectives who had no sense of what was happening from the inside. Diagnosing the illness was easier (and more accurate) for me.

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And I'm one poster who's glad you did. Thanks.



FYI (and I'm not saying I necessarily know what to make of this), LSU seems to have started increasing its proportion of out-of-state recruits around 1985 or so. For Archer's classes, we have...

1987 Class
LA: 13
TX: 9
Other: 5

1988 Class
LA: 13
TX: 11
Other: 4

1989 Class
LA: 12
TX: 4
Other: 6

1990 Class
LA: 11
TX: 4
Other: 7

To me, this just says that LSU had a big enough recruiting base back then, to where a down year or two within the state shouldn't have really hurt the program too much over a 4-year or 5-year time span.

Surely, there were no excuses for falling behind teams like Baylor, ULM, & LA Tech, in terms of preparing players for the NFL draft.

Did he? I thought those were fall of 2006 guys (and baseball signing classes are always up in the air until late in the year, right?).

Anyway, like I pointed out, during Smoke's 5 years, LSU did have the best conference record in the SEC, and this was during the same time span that South Carolina and Florida made it all the way to the NCG or NC series (only to each lose to Texas). He does deserve some credit, but I still wonder if all those guys would have actually come to LSU had Smoke remained the coach.

Tell me if I'm wrong. I wasn't following baseball recruiting back then.

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Not correct. Only Coleman was a Laval recruit.

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incorrect