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re: What is the Logic Behind Baseball Scholarship Rules

Posted on 6/3/09 at 1:31 am to
Posted by TortiousTiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2007
12668 posts
Posted on 6/3/09 at 1:31 am to
Mens Swimming: 22 roster, 9.9 scholarships
Men'sGolf: 8 roster, 4.5 schollys
Soccer: 25 roster, 9.9 scholarships for men and 12 for women
Posted by TortiousTiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2007
12668 posts
Posted on 6/3/09 at 1:32 am to
quote:

So are they actually having to deposit funds? THis seems all like robbing Peter to pay Paul to me.


Dude, if tuition isnt paid, the school loses that money.

I dont get what you dont understand.
Posted by RelocatedPelican
Member since Dec 2008
1042 posts
Posted on 6/3/09 at 1:37 am to
If you're puzzled now, try looking at the situation for D3 schools, where no atheletic scholarships are allowed ( at least true for baseball ). Some have what amounts to bogus schollies that they can give out to atheletes to pay minute sums of the costs, but thanks to the NCAA rule on D3 schools, that's the best they can do. As if it wasn't bad enough that they were D3 to begin with, think about them finding that elusive player that the big schools over looked, then having to explain to them that while they want them, they have to pay their own way.

Like with most things, ruling bodies often become nothing more than bureaucracies that actually hurt the causes they claim to stand for. The NCAA is no different, and instead of helping to provide the best opportunities for prospective student atheletes, they hinder the chances of those young people ever playing at the collegiate level. Their arguement is typically that by limiting scholarships, it spreads out the talent; a flawed perspective that totally disregards where the person may wish to attend college for educational or personal reasons, instead changing it into a question of money - attend a college the person doesn't really care for but will pay one's way through an open sports scholarship versus attending a college the person loves and in turn, wants that person to play for them as well, but may not have a scholarship to offer, thanks to the NCAA's artificial limitations. The NCAA's motto must be 'why help someone find the best fit when you can help them find the one that's not as bad as the others!'
Posted by Keys Open Doors
In hiding with Tupac & XXXTentacion
Member since Dec 2008
32779 posts
Posted on 6/3/09 at 1:46 am to
quote:

Mens Swimming: 22 roster, 9.9 scholarships, Men's Golf: 8 roster, 4.5 schollys, Soccer: 25 roster, 9.9 scholarships for men and 12 for women


Exactly. Baseball isn't the exception to the rule at all. Football and basketball are the exceptions. Basically every other sport has these kinds of limitations. I believe lacrosse has 11.6 scholarships for about 40 spots. Most schools will give a full ride to one or two top players for two of their four years, and everyone else relies on financial aid or partial scholarships.
Posted by bayourant
Homer
Member since Aug 2005
34445 posts
Posted on 6/3/09 at 1:49 am to
quote:

Dude, if tuition isnt paid, the school loses that money.

I dont get what you dont understand.


Well maybe this will be clearer in the morning but I still don't get it. I have to think that Private Schools that lets say "We shall have 1200 students and no more is minority"

THe fact that you add to a average Class .05 student to a Prof's work load does not seem to be drag on the system monetary wise. Adding another lets say 35 students does not deny 35 other PAYING student to come in. It also does not seem to degrade the overall classromm experience and quality education by overloading classes thus diminishing the value of the degree and thus market potential of the University unless under some wild scenario all the baseball players had the same major

I suppose their are private colleges that have this scenario where student numbers are set in stone and can not go beyond that but I have to think that is the minority

For instance if Louisiana College in Pineville waived tution for 35 baseball players does that mean 35 other students would be denied coming to Louisiana College. I would not think so.
Posted by TortiousTiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2007
12668 posts
Posted on 6/3/09 at 1:55 am to


I think you need to look at this in the morning man...

quote:

For instance if Louisiana College in Pineville waived tution for 35 baseball players does that mean 35 other students would be denied coming to Louisiana College. I would not think so.


They are still losing the money from the tuition for the 35 baseball players, even if they somehow "replaces" that tuition with 35 non scholarship students.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way.
Posted by TigerintheNO
New Orleans
Member since Jan 2004
44132 posts
Posted on 6/3/09 at 1:58 am to
quote:

Football and basketball are the exceptions.



The solution is simple= make cheerleading a NCAA sport!

Yes, the Big East and Big Ten would be screwed, but they are used to ugly women.
Posted by bayourant
Homer
Member since Aug 2005
34445 posts
Posted on 6/3/09 at 2:05 am to
Well maybe so. I would be interested to see how many of those baseball players at Tulane or Baylor that are not on Sports Schollys are paying full tution. I expect many of them are getting academic scholarships wink wink nod nod.

If not I give it to Tulane that somehow can recruit great baseball players while their parents pay huge amounts for tution
Posted by Tigercat
Tacoma, WA
Member since Feb 2004
4519 posts
Posted on 6/3/09 at 2:24 am to
quote:

Dude, if tuition isnt paid, the school loses that money. I dont get what you dont understand.


Even a small 1000 student school can afford to give 10 more students a free ride if it expands their student body in a way they see as beneficial.

The school doesn't lose money if a specific student is given a scholly, or at least not necessarily that tuition money. That student may not have gone to that school to begin with, and you give that student a scholly because he/she adds something that is worth money back to your school.

A scholarship student that is lured to your school on the basis of that scholarship only costs the school money out of pocket insomuch as that student uses up extra resources that would be free if that student's spot was just an empty chair.
This post was edited on 6/3/09 at 2:27 am
Posted by TortiousTiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2007
12668 posts
Posted on 6/3/09 at 2:33 am to
quote:

A scholarship student that is lured to your school on the basis of that scholarship only costs the school money out of pocket insomuch as that student uses up extra resources that would be free if that student's spot was just an empty chair.


thats not the way costs are determined, but I see your point.
Posted by Mr. Curious
Chocolate City
Member since Aug 2004
756 posts
Posted on 6/3/09 at 5:48 am to
How many schollies does women's softball receive?
Posted by double d
Amarillo by morning
Member since Jun 2004
17057 posts
Posted on 6/3/09 at 6:48 am to
quote:

If not I give it to Tulane that somehow can recruit great baseball players while their parents pay huge amounts for tution


A large number get some Academic money, some get legislative scholarships. One thing Rick has always told people about recruiting, he has to find kids that have the 3 P's.
-Can Play right away
-Can Pass
-Can Pay

The scholarship rules hurt private schools way more than most public ones. Add to that a bunch of stuffed shirts on the admissions board that won't cut athletes any slack (NCAA standard is much lower than what they require) and recruiting is a bitch. Tulane does allow 12 "non-qualifiers" but football and basketball get all of them.
Posted by BaysideBama
Gulf Shores - Alabama's beach
Member since Sep 2008
224 posts
Posted on 6/3/09 at 7:34 am to
You guys have TOPS so it is a huge advantage for in-state guys. The 11.5 or whatever applies to Alabama and MS schools. LSU can use those for out of state players if they choose and use tops for in-state. It gives you more players, more depth and virtually a lock on all the top players in-state because in-state is TOPS funded. Creates a huge advantage when you can have 30 or 35 players on full ride and we have 12.5 or whatever split up between 30 guys. Huge advantage for lotto states. Its why we cant compete with you in reg season and tourney. We cant compete with anyone. The NCAA got sick of our having big-money donors donate full rides in the 60's and 70's to go along with our school funded schollies in football. The NCAA put a cap on the number, at 105 I believe regardless of what kind of schollie you were on. Bryant would have 300 or 400 players out in the fall, 12 QB's, 15 RB's, etc. It helped us dominate. Other schools in the SEC didnt have the funding to compete with us. THe NCAA said nope. I wish they would do the same in baseball. I'd ove to see us with 12.5 and LSU, Georgia, Florida, etc with 12.5 and 12.5 only. I dont believe you would beat us every year. I know you wouldnt. YOu know it too.
Posted by Pilot Tiger
North Carolina
Member since Nov 2005
73847 posts
Posted on 6/3/09 at 7:42 am to
quote:

You guys have TOPS so it is a huge advantage for in-state guys.
I can totally see the NCAA saying that athletes no longer can receive academic scholarships. you're right
Posted by tirebiter
7K R&G chile land aka SF
Member since Oct 2006
10713 posts
Posted on 6/3/09 at 8:20 am to
quote:

The scholarship rules hurt private schools way more than most public ones. Add to that a bunch of stuffed shirts on the admissions board that won't cut athletes any slack (NCAA standard is much lower than what they require) and recruiting is a bitch. Tulane does allow 12 "non-qualifiers" but football and basketball get all of them.


Many private schools provide much higher levels of financial aid and support to students they desire to enroll compared to public institutions. It would depend on the institution's endowment and what was important to them.
Posted by tirebiter
7K R&G chile land aka SF
Member since Oct 2006
10713 posts
Posted on 6/3/09 at 8:22 am to
Yes, Bama never competes in nor wins the SEC baseball tournament with essentially home field advantage in Hoover.

Maybe the problem is more Jim Wells than lack of lotto money. AU has gone in the dumper as well although I think their coach will get it done.
Posted by Mossyoak
Pineville, LA
Member since Sep 2007
275 posts
Posted on 6/3/09 at 8:24 am to
They are still losing the money from the tuition for the 35 baseball players, even if they somehow "replaces" that tuition with 35 non scholarship students.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way.


I think what he is getting at is the effect of adding 35 non-paying players to the rolls would not be actually costing the university much money out of pocket. Meals and housing would be about all. Not having their tuition would not cost them any money. The university would not get that tuition money but it would not cost them anything "out of pocket". Those 35 students could be added to various classes and not affect overall class size by much. IE...Your psych class has 40 students enrolled and you send Joe Jock on "scholorship" into the class and now you have 41. One more student really doesn't make a difference. In the earlier example, 3.5 mil over 4 years seems big but take into account that the university will not be paying out that money just not taking it in.
Posted by Tiger in NY
Neptune Beach, FL
Member since Sep 2003
31392 posts
Posted on 6/3/09 at 10:13 am to
quote:

It just seems we are having to divide this all over the place and having to rely on academic schollys or TOPS.


I think every player is now required to receive a minimum of 1/3 scholarship
Posted by Tiger in NY
Neptune Beach, FL
Member since Sep 2003
31392 posts
Posted on 6/3/09 at 10:23 am to
quote:

You guys have TOPS so it is a huge advantage for in-state guys. The 11.5 or whatever applies to Alabama and MS schools. LSU can use those for out of state players if they choose and use tops for in-state. It gives you more players, more depth and virtually a lock on all the top players in-state because in-state is TOPS funded. Creates a huge advantage when you can have 30 or 35 players on full ride and we have 12.5 or whatever split up between 30 guys. Huge advantage for lotto states



This is no longer true. All players are required to receive a minimum amount of athletic scholarship $$
Posted by double d
Amarillo by morning
Member since Jun 2004
17057 posts
Posted on 6/3/09 at 10:51 am to
quote:

I think every player is now required to receive a minimum of 1/3 scholarship


correct
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