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Trusting a coach...... difference in one coach to another
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:39 pm
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:39 pm
How is it that Saban commanded so much confidence with LSU fans?
What I mean, is that despite embarrassments like the 31-0 loss to Bama, 35-24 to Ole Miss in 01, 31-7 to Auburn, 45-16 to UGA, on and on.....I felt a sense that he knew what he was doing adn the ship was okay. I don't believe I was the only one with that feeling.
The only loss that I remember Saban feeling heat is UAB.
Is it the fact that Saban is such an authoritarian, that people felt confident he would right the ship?
Is it the SEC championship in 01 that brought this? What if Ole Miss beats Arky in that big OT game and the chips don't fall right and we end up in the peach bowl?
Is it b/c we beat UT in OT in 2000 that signalled the waking of a giant?
It seems like everyone kind of excused him for the 2002 season. If we had a five loss season now, it'd be the end of the world.
It just seems to me that people still are weary of Miles, despite a better track record. I'm not saying Miles is the man and is unflawed, but people generally seemed more at ease that Saban had the program in the right direction.
My personal opinion is that it is a combination of the following:
1. Saban had a proven, winning track record. Miles, although not proven, was a HUGE question mark.
2. 7-4 seasons were freaking awesome back in 2000!
3. It is a lot harder to follow a guy like Saban and maintain the ship than it is to come in with low expectations after a 3-8 year and build the ship.
4. Saban was perceived and still is perceived as a LOT smarter x's and o's coach, while Miles is perceived as a "CEO."
What I mean, is that despite embarrassments like the 31-0 loss to Bama, 35-24 to Ole Miss in 01, 31-7 to Auburn, 45-16 to UGA, on and on.....I felt a sense that he knew what he was doing adn the ship was okay. I don't believe I was the only one with that feeling.
The only loss that I remember Saban feeling heat is UAB.
Is it the fact that Saban is such an authoritarian, that people felt confident he would right the ship?
Is it the SEC championship in 01 that brought this? What if Ole Miss beats Arky in that big OT game and the chips don't fall right and we end up in the peach bowl?
Is it b/c we beat UT in OT in 2000 that signalled the waking of a giant?
It seems like everyone kind of excused him for the 2002 season. If we had a five loss season now, it'd be the end of the world.
It just seems to me that people still are weary of Miles, despite a better track record. I'm not saying Miles is the man and is unflawed, but people generally seemed more at ease that Saban had the program in the right direction.
My personal opinion is that it is a combination of the following:
1. Saban had a proven, winning track record. Miles, although not proven, was a HUGE question mark.
2. 7-4 seasons were freaking awesome back in 2000!
3. It is a lot harder to follow a guy like Saban and maintain the ship than it is to come in with low expectations after a 3-8 year and build the ship.
4. Saban was perceived and still is perceived as a LOT smarter x's and o's coach, while Miles is perceived as a "CEO."
This post was edited on 10/14/08 at 3:40 pm
14
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:42 pm to Moustache
Good topic, i think alot of it is the way they carry themselves...but Saban did get his fair share of criticism after the Ole Miss game in 01.
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:42 pm to Moustache
Excellent point. Saban continually lost to teams that he should never lose to, and a lot of people on here still think he is a better coach. Generally speaking, Miles has had his teams more prepared, and his recruiting has been the same, if not better.
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:43 pm to josh336
quote:
Good topic, i think alot of it is the way they carry themselves...but Saban did get his fair share of criticism after the Ole Miss game in 01.
I agree with you on the "way they carry themselves."
That has A LOT to do with it.
Yeah, but that was only b/c it was Ole Miss IMO. If that would've been Arky, SC, or Bama it would've been criticized but nowhere near as harshly.
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:45 pm to Moustache
Saban lost 3 games on, basically, the last play of the game on long TD passes where his secondary either blew coverage or was badly beaten. This from the proverbial defensive genius. And, he lost 3 games a yr every year except the NC yr. A proven winner..at Michigan St??? Sorry, he is a great coach, no question, but he is far from being a lot better coach than C.Miles in my opinion, at least in this point of their respective careers. Coach Meyers gets all the credit for being a creative genius, yet, had he lost Sat nite, he would have been 5 & 5 in his 10 SEC games.
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:45 pm to NaturalBeam
quote:
Excellent point. Saban continually lost to teams that he should never lose to, and a lot of people on here still think he is a better coach. Generally speaking, Miles has had his teams more prepared, and his recruiting has been the same, if not better.
I will say that under Saban we blew out quality SEC opponents a lot more often than under Miles.
Whether that's b/c the competition is better now or b/c of something else, i don't know.
Also, Miles teams seem to start VERY sluggishly. We are def. a second half team. Saban's teams used to jump out on people and do the "jim mora."
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:47 pm to Moustache
spoiled fan base with higher expectations.....period
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:47 pm to Moustache
Great topic, and generally you touch upon much of the facts, myths, and perceptions, that make for such a discussion.
This post was edited on 10/14/08 at 3:54 pm
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:51 pm to TheRoarRestoredInBR
Saban was more direct after a loss. Acted like it really bothered him, admitted problems. A loss like this would have led to some great sabanisms. Miles was too busy covering his staff's hiney. Much of the topics you see would not be here if we had some answers from Miles, instead we have only the thought that nothing is going to change.
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:53 pm to jaxfl tiger
quote:
spoiled fan base with higher expectations.....period
Yes. To a great degree. Man, Saban's last game he ever coached for us, we lost to an inferior opponent and a lesser coach on a defensive break down. The man walked and talked confidence but had some serious lapses along the way. With Tiger fans the "myth" is always better than reality. To some Tiger fans, the myth is that the program was at such a place that if Saban had stayed, we would have won several more championships by now and Less is underachieving. The reality is Saban may have won another one in the same time frame but would also have lost some games that would leave you shaking your heads in amazement and disappointment. But leave it to Tiger fans to live off of the myth.
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:54 pm to Moustache
1. Saban is a more eloquent speaker (this will make someone come off as smarter than someone else). When Saban spoke, people listened. Youtube the Gameday segment post 2003 UGA game. Listen to how quiet the crowd got when Saban started talking.
2. Saban is the master psychologist. He was able to even control the masses (fans). I remember at the end of his radio shows he wanted Death Valley to do "xyz" and it would set the tone going into the weekend. He had all the fans in the same mindset of we have one goal, and we all need to work together (team, administration, coaches, trainers, AND fans/supporters).
3. Miles, not so much of an eloquent speaker.
4. Miles has done an excellent job surrounding himself with good staff. I believe hiring Crowton was a reason why we won the BCS last year. I don't feel he made the right choice for DC this year though. Peeveto was a terrible special teams coach....so I don't see how he's a DC now.
2. Saban is the master psychologist. He was able to even control the masses (fans). I remember at the end of his radio shows he wanted Death Valley to do "xyz" and it would set the tone going into the weekend. He had all the fans in the same mindset of we have one goal, and we all need to work together (team, administration, coaches, trainers, AND fans/supporters).
3. Miles, not so much of an eloquent speaker.
4. Miles has done an excellent job surrounding himself with good staff. I believe hiring Crowton was a reason why we won the BCS last year. I don't feel he made the right choice for DC this year though. Peeveto was a terrible special teams coach....so I don't see how he's a DC now.
This post was edited on 10/14/08 at 4:00 pm
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:54 pm to Moustache
Saban got a pass because of the perception of the team. We were way down and Saban was bringing it up every year. He got a pass in 2004 because of player loss. Starting in 2005, if he didn't have a 10-2 type of year, the heat would have started on him.
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:55 pm to Aktig
It's "attention to details" and jamming gunners, and chipping receivers,etc..that are now not taught with the exactness and urgency as before, nor used as much, and certainly not with high discipline nor high repetition..
With the last of Saban's roster now gone, the last of the players trained in Sabanism, yet also allowed to play freely and also learn some Milesism, Pelinism,etc..are gone..
Now, those things on the field & inside the locker room, of the last of the "dual taught" are no more, just the players that know only of what learned under this current staff..
And many "attention to details" items that I liked formerly, are dissipating away from the Program, not that Miles hasn't been superior to Saban on many fronts himself..he has.
With the last of Saban's roster now gone, the last of the players trained in Sabanism, yet also allowed to play freely and also learn some Milesism, Pelinism,etc..are gone..
Now, those things on the field & inside the locker room, of the last of the "dual taught" are no more, just the players that know only of what learned under this current staff..
And many "attention to details" items that I liked formerly, are dissipating away from the Program, not that Miles hasn't been superior to Saban on many fronts himself..he has.
This post was edited on 10/14/08 at 4:05 pm
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:56 pm to Moustache
We expect more now that we've won 2 NC's...Also - Saban was instrumental in LSU's building of facilities, attitude, etc. for LSU football and he won games. Miles has done a fantastic job at maintaining what we have and continuing with great recruiting, winning games and a NC.
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:56 pm to Cajun Tigah
quote:
He got a pass in 2004 because of player loss
Amazing. And Miles is not given the same type pass....while breaking in a redshirt freshman QB who hadn't taken a live snap since high school. Simply amazing.
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:57 pm to Cajun Tigah
There were more than a few players, especially on the defensive side of the ball, Laron Landry for one, that had professed that they were not going to return had Saban stayed, so what his record mite have been is hard to judge. Losing 3 games a yr for 3-4-5 yrs is a better indication of any possible track record in the future.
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:57 pm to jaxfl tiger
First of all, Saban is more articulate, which engenders confidence. Second of all, Saban is more intelligent from a tactical, schematic perspective. Saban exuded competence and maniacal dedication.
Let me ask you a serious question. Do you think that an NFL franchise would ever approach Miles and offer him the type of total authority that Saban had in Miami? I doubt it. In fact, no NFL owners have ever expressed a desire to have Miles coach in the professional ranks. NFL media pundits never mention Miles as a serious candidate for NFL coaching vacancies. Yes, I realize that Saban's tenure in Miami was a failure, but the fact of the matter is that he is perceived in knowledgeable football circles, including the NFL, as a brilliant coach. There is no analagous perception of Miles.
Now, that fact that Miles isn't a loquacious, tactical genius doesn't mean that he can't be a succcessful college football coach. He can be an effective program manager. But he will foster a great deal more skepticism when he loses (especially when promotes his novice cronies from within and ends up losing by 30! LOL.)
Let me ask you a serious question. Do you think that an NFL franchise would ever approach Miles and offer him the type of total authority that Saban had in Miami? I doubt it. In fact, no NFL owners have ever expressed a desire to have Miles coach in the professional ranks. NFL media pundits never mention Miles as a serious candidate for NFL coaching vacancies. Yes, I realize that Saban's tenure in Miami was a failure, but the fact of the matter is that he is perceived in knowledgeable football circles, including the NFL, as a brilliant coach. There is no analagous perception of Miles.
Now, that fact that Miles isn't a loquacious, tactical genius doesn't mean that he can't be a succcessful college football coach. He can be an effective program manager. But he will foster a great deal more skepticism when he loses (especially when promotes his novice cronies from within and ends up losing by 30! LOL.)
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:58 pm to Cajun Tigah
I think everything people have said has a bit of truth to it.
YEs, the fan base is definitely spoiled. Myself included. But, Saban did carry himself better and seemed very irate so I believe that comforted fans to think this guy is pissed and he's gonna do something.
I'm not saying it's wrong for Miles to cover his staff and not throw anybody under the bus (especially the players), but it leaves a lot of fans in a state of unease. ONly time will tell.
Plus, Saban bringing in monster recruiting class that LSU had never seen much of before added to him righting the ship.
YEs, the fan base is definitely spoiled. Myself included. But, Saban did carry himself better and seemed very irate so I believe that comforted fans to think this guy is pissed and he's gonna do something.
I'm not saying it's wrong for Miles to cover his staff and not throw anybody under the bus (especially the players), but it leaves a lot of fans in a state of unease. ONly time will tell.
Plus, Saban bringing in monster recruiting class that LSU had never seen much of before added to him righting the ship.
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:58 pm to TheRoarRestoredInBR
Saban got a pass, b/c LSU football had been in the desert for so long. Miles faces more pressure b/c the mountain has now been climbed twice and nothing short of competing for or winning a championship is good enough for most of our fans, myself included.
Posted on 10/14/08 at 3:58 pm to Aktig
I agree with what you said, about Saban anyway. he would directly address the problems with us, the fans. I remember him saying after the 31-0 alabama loss, "I am a competitor. I know how bad you as fans feel after a loss and it takes you a week to get over it, but let me tell you that there is no one here who wants to wim more than me and there is no one here who feels worse after a loss than me. I cannot wait to go out and beat the next opponent. I want to win every game!" That right there suddenly made us feel a little better after that loss. As for commading so much trust from us, guess what? That was only after he left. Most fans won't admit it, but we quiestioned plays in every loss. The most popular question would be, "Where are the halftime adjustments?" We would all ask that because there weren't any, at least it seemed. Thats why I say that Saban may the best coach in America with respect to building a program and installing a winning spirit, but he's not such a great gameday coach. So again, it "seems" like we all trusted him so much but people forget. Miles just has a different style. You don't think that loss hurt him and pissed him of worse than it did us? If you say no then you are a fool. He knows about the defense and I would bet the farm he is trying his best to correct it.
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