re: Tommy John - Not If, but When?

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And just counting games on a website isn't telling you how much the kids are pitching/throwing. They pitch the limit for Travel Team A in pool play, then catch the rest of the weekend, then pitch the limit for Rec Team A on Tuesday and play SS on Thursday then pitch the limit for Travel Team B the next weekend because Travel Team A took off. That doesn't count the number of pitches he threw at his private lesson on Monday or the throws from SS at practice on Wednesday and Friday.

Overuse is still a thing.

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that kind of shite is on the parent. at some point parents have to take responsibility. i mean how hard is it not to go to lessons for 1 month and buy the damn armcare.com device? its only 300.

i mean shite, cant monitor everything.

i mentioned that was a problem before. i wish they would make every league go to game changer and each kid gets a unique id and total pitch count for the week had to be submitted no matter the org. but at some point parents have to take responsibility and be the advocate for their child.

As I said before, I believe we're past the point of no return. Kids/parents just want to throw gas tomorrow and the next day and the next day until the arm blows then they'll just get the surgery and move on.

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never said increased velo isnt a contributing factor

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We agree on velocity. Check.

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Overuse is a major factor.
Biomechanics is a major factor.

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never said these were not issues, i said they are not the major issues

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Disagree here. All 4 factors I mentioned are major contributing factors in general. For a specific player it could be one factor. Very seldom will you see a UCL injury on a baseball player that has not played a lot of baseball from a young age and up. Studies have demonstrated this. In your own posts you talk about fatigue as a factor. This can come from acute fatigue related to that day. It can also come from fatigue of too much baseball and overhand throwing that is cumulative from playing multiple positions and higher numbers of games in a short period of time. This is a fact that has changed with the advent of year round travel ball over the past 25 years.

Biomechanics are absolutely a major issue. You talked about this yourself in a post about stride length, tailing leg drag and the inverted W. This is one of a several factors that place more stress on the arm. This is a major factor in UCL injuries. Strength can help overcome some of this, but not all of it.

You can do all the strength work in the world and use the app and still get a UCL injury if you have been playing a ton of baseball since you were young and if your biomechanics are deficient, you are at risk. The research is very clear on this.

What is interesting is armcare.com lists several schools as users of the app that have had UCL injuries this season, along with just about every season. Why is that?

A combination of overuse, biomechanics, increased velocity, and strength is why.

It comes from travel ball, when my son was younger they started the season in January and would shut down right before Thanksgiving he was short stop and pitcher. When he was 13 he had arm issues and had a slight tear in UCL doc put him in cast for 3 months so he couldn’t throw. It worked but he still has arm issues at 25.

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As I said before, I believe we're past the point of no return. Kids/parents just want to throw gas tomorrow and the next day and the next day until the arm blows then they'll just get the surgery and move on.

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Agreed, what’s funny though is most come back throwing harder…why? Because they have time to focus on increasing strength in bodyweight.

When I tell parents that their hs kid needs to get their bodyweight to min 2.5xheight in inches and really to 2.75 to really be able to throw with high intent safely…I get looks like wtf. It’s the same look I get when they ask me for strength metrics and I give them the reverse lunge and box Squat velocities

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Disagree here. All 4 factors I mentioned are major contributing factors in general. For a specific player it could be one factor. Very seldom will you see a UCL injury on a baseball player that has not played a lot of baseball from a young age and up. Studies have demonstrated this. In your own posts you talk about fatigue as a factor. This can come from acute fatigue related to that day. It can also come from fatigue of too much baseball and overhand throwing that is cumulative from playing multiple positions and higher numbers of games in a short period of time. This is a fact that has changed with the advent of year round travel ball over the past 25 years.

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Guess I miss worded that, too much mound throwing especially before prepared to do so is a problem. I just don’t see it nearly as often as people assume on here.

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Biomechanics are absolutely a major issue. You talked about this yourself in a post about stride length, tailing leg drag and the inverted W. This is one of a several factors that place more stress on the arm. This is a major factor in UCL injuries. Strength can help overcome some of this, but not all of it.

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Again agree and guess I didn’t word correctly. Biomechanics is kind of a two part deal though. Kids can throw harder due to better biomechanics but also many still have major issues that most pitching coaches do not know

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You can do all the strength work in the world and use the app and still get a UCL injury if you have been playing a ton of baseball since you were young and if your biomechanics are deficient, you are at risk. The research is very clear on this.

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There is no research that shows meeting certain strength metrics and still playing often leads to higher risk. There isn’t at all. But there is lots of research that shows meeting the metrics decreases the risk big time

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What is interesting is armcare.com lists several schools as users of the app that have had UCL injuries this season, along with just about every season. Why is that?

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Simple, disregard for the data. If it tells you…hey you have fatigue, you are at risk or hey you have a mobility issue that puts you at higher risk but you go out and throw anyways….nothing you can do about it lol.

He should with that dumb name

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One is more prevalent than the others and is a larger factor. They are not all equal. Overuse, Biomechanics, and deficient strength would mean more shoulder injuries too… but that’s not happening. The only correlation between the increase in UCL tears is the increase in velocity. Overuse hasn’t suddenly increased… kids are stronger not weaker… the biomechanics are better overall not worse. It’s the increase in speed and it happening earlier and earlier.

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Why do kids throw harder? Because they work at it to throw harder. They have increased the number of throws and the effort of these throws. This is the overuse component in the equation. It takes more practice and intent to throw harder. Thus, overuse is a major factor.

Again, the vast majority of UCL injuries are cumulative overuse injuries with trauma over time that leads to an acute rupture or tear.

Starting in the late 90’s and ramping up into the 2000’s, UCL injuries began to spike. This was almost completely due increased volume of playing due to year round baseball, along with fatigue.

Now we have that combined with the push over the past 10-15 years for everyone to throw 90+ and of course higher. Now the push for velocity is a major component. But you aren’t going to increase velocity unless you are throwing a lot.

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lol. LOL. You think any college pitcher or coach is going to say “Hey, the app says you shouldn’t pitch today. I know you are our Friday night SEC starter, but it’s time to sit.” Yeah, that’s not practical.

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Well there ya go lol

I’ll link you the data tomorrow. Have to find it. Much of it is in-house studies by atp and it’s all over the place

The velocity push began with radar guns becoming more and more prevalent. You now had a way to measure one guys “stuff” vs another without the component of competition.

The spike in UCL injuries over the last 5-10 years is coming from other data points now. Spin rates, pressure pads, etc that a coach like Wes is well known for utilizing. LSU had nearly every single pitcher gain 3-5 mph in less than a year. That has zero to do with workload. Yet here you are saying the velo increase is because they’re throwing too much. That’s not it.