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Message
re: Sporting News: Edward Jim Orgeron Jr. is the 15th best coach in America
Posted on 6/24/19 at 7:26 am to TigerLunatik
Posted on 6/24/19 at 7:26 am to TigerLunatik
It’s all old news and we all keep rehashing the same points. None of it really matters.
The same posters will talk of the top Miles classes without acknowledging how many transferred and finished their careers at Group of Five or FCS schools.
The same posters will claim Orgeron deserves credit for players he didn’t sign.
The same poster will claim Burrow is a top 5 pick.
It’s tough to have any real football discourse here because people immediately revert to their respective corners if you post anything that they perceive as a threat to their continued positions.
The same posters will talk of the top Miles classes without acknowledging how many transferred and finished their careers at Group of Five or FCS schools.
The same posters will claim Orgeron deserves credit for players he didn’t sign.
The same poster will claim Burrow is a top 5 pick.
It’s tough to have any real football discourse here because people immediately revert to their respective corners if you post anything that they perceive as a threat to their continued positions.
2
Posted on 6/24/19 at 7:31 am to Rickdaddy4188
quote:
has o done anything to warrant criticism since being named interim head coach
Nobody is above reproach. I criticized the offense, Sullivan and LSU'S blocking schemes either in this thread or another one this past weekend. You obviously pick and choose what you can read and comprehend.
quote:
only because you have to call posters pathetic,sad or claim that they want lsu to lose under O
And you regularly call people liars, you twist words, cherrypick, lie by omission, all to discredit some other poster that you don't even know but you're so obsessed with winning an argument that there's nothing that you won't say to achieve what you call victory.
quote:
they want lsu to lose under O
Could you link this please? As of right now I'm assuming it's just like 90% of your accusations. Total bullshite.
quote:
only because you have to call posters pathetic,sad
That's only because you are.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 7:34 am to The First Cut
quote:
It’s tough to have any real football discourse here
It is, especially when people pull one sentence out of an entire post and then apply their own logic to it like we just saw on the previous page.
I do appreciate that I feel that I can have an actual discussion with you without all the other bullshite even when we disagree.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 7:38 am to TigerLunatik
quote:
I can only give you my side of this. I am very hard on coaches for 2 reasons. Obviously, they are (as you said) ultimately responsible for my team winning or losing and they get paid an obscene amount of money to do so.
This is EXACTLY why I was hard on Miles and still am with CPM. I dont feel either won enough/wins enough given the talent, $, facilities, and support each has/had.
Its not personal with either man....its strictly business.
quote:
I've said this many times here, LSU sports has always been like a part of my family ever since I was a little kid and still is to this day. I love the school like I love a cousin and life revolves around it for us. For that reason I can try to be as objective as I can, but in the end I am not. It just runs too deep in my blood. My first football season was 1975 when I wasn't even a year old yet, but there I was in Tiger Stadium in diapers. I love LSU and all LSU fans. It feels like a brotherhood to me.
This I can completely relate to.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 7:43 am to TigerLunatik
We don’t argue because you don’t distort information to “prove” a point. I can respect that we have differing opinions without there being a mission to discredit the poster, not the position.
With many others here there’s a complete inability to accept anything that can be perceived as weakening their overarching argument.
Many here think that I’m pro-Orgeron, when in reality I’m just pro-LSU. I was all in on Miles, and now I am with Orgeron. It’s not the man, it’s the team. So I am more than willing to admit that LSU’s 2018 recruiting class has a lot of holes. I’m also willing to accept that the 2017 team woefully underperformed with the talent and experience it had. Likewise, I’m more than willing to accept that Miles’ lofty classes often didn’t produce, particularly on offense, because the players left early or the classes didn’t have playmakers where most needed - QB.
With many others here there’s a complete inability to accept anything that can be perceived as weakening their overarching argument.
Many here think that I’m pro-Orgeron, when in reality I’m just pro-LSU. I was all in on Miles, and now I am with Orgeron. It’s not the man, it’s the team. So I am more than willing to admit that LSU’s 2018 recruiting class has a lot of holes. I’m also willing to accept that the 2017 team woefully underperformed with the talent and experience it had. Likewise, I’m more than willing to accept that Miles’ lofty classes often didn’t produce, particularly on offense, because the players left early or the classes didn’t have playmakers where most needed - QB.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 7:46 am to RedTigerRulz
quote:
This is EXACTLY why I was hard on Miles and still am with CPM. I dont feel either won enough/wins enough given the talent, $, facilities, and support each has/had.
I 100% get why you're on their asses and don't have a problem with it at all. My only issue with the PM "hate" was that people were giving up on March, April and early May. Baseball is a post season sport. Mainieri 100% under performed this season and it's all on him as the head coach.
quote:
Its not personal with either man....its strictly business.
I'm sure the overwhelming majority feel the same way when it comes to any coach that they're criticizing.
You da man, Red. I always respect someone who says what they feel regardless of what it is and are unapologetic about who they are.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 8:11 am to RedTigerRulz
quote:
This is EXACTLY why I was hard on Miles and still am with CPM. I dont feel either won enough/wins enough given the talent, $, facilities, and support each has/had.
Its not personal with either man....its strictly business.
Which is fine...so long as that incredibly high standard extends to the current staff. And that does not mean equaling or surpassing the 2 years prior to Miles being shown the door. It means surpassing the 5 seasons before THAT where LSU went 44-9 from 2010 through 2013 which you described as as him having not"won enough/wins enough given the talent, $, facilities, and support."
At the end of the day, all most of us that are being critical of Orgeron want is for you guys that were this hyper critical of Miles when he was absolutely killing it but only had one SEC title and a loss in the NC game to show for it is to continue with this same level of high expectation. Unfortunately what we've more often seen is a lessening of those expectations and excuses for why they are NOW too much to ask of LSU's head coach and program.
FWIW, I never agreed with that level of hyper criticism of Miles back then, because even though I'd have loved to win EVEN MORE than we were I never thought it was our birthright to surpass the longest run of success we'd ever had. Likewise, I would never really hold Orgeron to that level you guys expected of Miles for the same exact reason.
But you can be be damned sure I expect him to at least MEET what got Miles on the hotseat with you guys for all those years, because failing to meet that and still not received criticism from the group that was never happy with Miles is just too much to ask from me. And so far, he's barely above the final two years of Miles' time here and nowhere near approaching 2010-2013 levels.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 8:57 am to GeauxTigerTM
quote:
so long as that incredibly high standard extends to the current staff.
It most certainly does. I have said a number of times that anything short of 11 wins would be disappointing given the returning talent and favorable schedule.
quote:
It means surpassing the 5 seasons before THAT where LSU went 44-9 from 2010 through 2013 which you described as as him having not"won enough/wins enough given the talent, $, facilities, and support."
You're cherrypicking now. Im not talking about that time frame. Those were good years. Im talking about post 2013 where Miles did not post such glowing numbers and then continued to hang around past his time....all the while, many posters making excuses for him and stating "just wait til next year!"
quote:
And so far, he's barely above the final two years of Miles' time here and nowhere near approaching 2010-2013 levels.
This would be accurate....thats why this season is so important for him.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 10:11 am to TigerLunatik
quote:
The past usually repeats itself
I don't necessarily agree in college football.
Every season Is a unique chance to make changes, right wrongs and either get better or stagnate. You hav different players, coaches, opponents, circumstances.
Saban lost to UAB and ULM in his career, that's not happening again. Things change, evolve, people learn.
every season is unique, people and can rcumstances change. Dwelling on the past runs the present
Posted on 6/24/19 at 10:19 am to The First Cut
quote:
Yay! On paper it’s the #2 class but in reality it produced one regular starter on offense - Cushenberry. It yielded three backup WRs, and a ton of OL that transferred to junior colleges and FCS schools after they couldn’t get on the field at LSU. Hurray for paper titles.
Once again, the class had 9 offensive players, including running back Devin White:
Stephen Sullivan - the highest ranked offensive player of the 2016 class. expected to be a starter/major contributor on offense
Drake Davis - dismissed
Devin White - running back convered to ILB; 5th overall pick
Donavaughn Campbell - backup OL; started a couple of games last season, overall has not lived up to 4* billing
Willie Allen - transferred in 2017
Dee Anderson - 6 catches, 102 yards in the 2019 Spring game; looks to be a starter/major contributor in the Brady offense
Jamal Pettigrew - plagued with injury issues since his arrival; looks to finally contribute this season
Jakori Savage - backup OL; came in as a 3*, was never predicted to contribute much
Lloyd Cushenberry - the lowest ranked offensive player of the 2016 class, will be anchoring the OL for the second straight year as staring center
So there you have it, the entire 2016 class broken down.
quote:
, and a ton of OL that transferred to junior colleges and FCS schools after they couldn’t get on the field at LSU.
Translation: my name is The First Cut and I am full of shite because "a ton" equals "one" in my opinion.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 10:23 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Saban lost to UAB and ULM in his career,
Saban also took over actual rebuilds at LSU and Bama. Saban also had won a NC at LSU and taken a shot as an NFL head coach before that happened. People are more willing to look past losses like that during ACTUAL rebuilds and when a coach has a prior history of success.
Oh, and losses like that are also overlooked when a coach follows it up with a division title. Saban lost to UAB in 2000. In 2001, he won the SEC. Saban lost to ULM in 2007. In 2008, he went undefeated in season play and won the West. He then won a national championship and SEC championship during an undefeated season in 2009, his third season of a rebuild.
That's why people still dwell on O's loss to Troy. He followed it up with a three-loss regular season and a third place finish in the West.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 10:27 am to Damone
quote:
Saban also took over actual rebuilds at LSU and Bama
The point is waaay over your head.
Saban also lost to a mid major in the Sugar Bowl, With talent. I'm guessing that's not going to repeat again either.
Nothing pushes change more than adversity, which is when the "past matters" reasoning doesn't always make sense
This post was edited on 6/24/19 at 10:31 am
Posted on 6/24/19 at 10:30 am to The First Cut
quote:
It’s tough to have any real football discourse here because people immediately revert to their respective corners if you post anything that they perceive as a threat to their continued positions.
Because there's a complete and utter failure to find any common ground.
I think it's no secret where I stand on the hire, but even I will concede that O is clearly not the same coach as he was at Ole Miss. that doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just simply means he hasn't careened LSU off the cliff.
Having said that, two straight 9-3 seasons feels a little like he is spinning his wheels, considering that's more or less what LSU did in 2015 and 2013, and 2012. Yes there are clearly more than one roads that lead to 9-3, as evidenced by 2012 2013 2015 2017 and 2018, but 3 losses is 3 losses is 3 losses.
so maybe if we can't agree on a certain foundation of agreed upon facts, maybe we can agree certain things are off limits? LOL.
This post was edited on 6/24/19 at 10:31 am
Posted on 6/24/19 at 10:31 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Saban also lost to a md major in the Sugar Bowl
After winning the West. And followed it up with an undefeated season, SECC and NC. So, basically, he lived up to his past. Trying to shoe horn in comparisons of O to Saban just never gets old.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 10:33 am to Damone
quote:
After winning the West.
Again you keep trying to shift the conversation because you dislike the point.
quote:
So, basically, he lived up to his past.
what? quote:
Trying to shoe horn in comparisons of O to Saban
This s legit retarded. No one is making comparisons between the two people.
You still can't grasp the point because of your overwhelming bias
This post was edited on 6/24/19 at 10:36 am
Posted on 6/24/19 at 10:35 am to The First Cut
quote:
With many others here there’s a complete inability to accept anything that can be perceived as weakening their overarching argument.
quote:
The First Cut
Please see my above responses.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 10:42 am to tandrews37
quote:
so maybe if we can't agree on a certain foundation of agreed upon facts, maybe we can agree certain things are off limits? LOL.
Evidently, this coming season is one of those things.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 10:53 am to tandrews37
quote:
Once again, the class had 9 offensive players, including running back Devin White:
Stephen Sullivan - the highest ranked offensive player of the 2016 class. expected to be a starter/major contributor on offense
Drake Davis - dismissed
Devin White - running back convered to ILB; 5th overall pick
Donavaughn Campbell - backup OL; started a couple of games last season, overall has not lived up to 4* billing
Willie Allen - transferred in 2017
Dee Anderson - 6 catches, 102 yards in the 2019 Spring game; looks to be a starter/major contributor in the Brady offense
Jamal Pettigrew - plagued with injury issues since his arrival; looks to finally contribute this season
Jakori Savage - backup OL; came in as a 3*, was never predicted to contribute much
Lloyd Cushenberry - the lowest ranked offensive player of the 2016 class, will be anchoring the OL for the second straight year as staring center
White was recruited as an LB so I won't hold it against Miles. So with 8 offensive signees, 1 became a regular starter. 1/8 .125 average 
Posted on 6/24/19 at 10:56 am to RedTigerRulz
quote:
You're cherrypicking now.
No, I'm not. Maybe that time frame is not what you're referring to...but will you admit that most of the guys who disliked Miles were on his arse this entire time because even though we were winning big, it wasn't enough? That we only had one title to show for that run? That we "wasted" 2011? Maybe not for ou specifically, but for what seems like the vast majority THAT was the time frame we started hearing about how Miles was "under-performing."
quote:
Im talking about post 2013 where Miles did not post such glowing numbers and then continued to hang around past his time....all the while, many posters making excuses for him and stating "just wait til next year!"
Think back, though. 2014 was terrible. It equaled the worst year, 8-5, Miles had here. But...for the vast majority of 2015 the Tigers were rolling. People forget because of the free fall at the tail end of tht season, but we were #2 going into the first CFP and still ended with 9 wins on the year despite missing out on the sure win which would have been McNeese which would have made it a 10 win season. So even though 2015 WAS trending better than the year before and back to the mean, Miles was almost shown the door at 8-3 after being #2 in the country late into the season?
Now I ask you...why? Would a coach have been nearly fired at that point for merely an 8-5 season and a 8-3 season UNLESS most folks were mad about the previous seasons?
The reason Miles was almost fired, and was fired 4 games into 2016 was because so many were not happy during even that great run...because it was not enough. even though we were trending back up, it felt like "same ole Miles" where we'd win a bunch for still have nothing to show for it. There's no other way to describe what happened. Miles' program was wallowing in disappointed fans from the end of 2011, and no amount of 10 wins seasons would fix that.
quote:
thats why this season is so important for him.
Right...and all I'm asking is that he's compared to the 2010-2013 run which got Miles on he hot seat to begin with and not the final 2 season which did him in. Being slightly better than the straws which broke Miles' back was not why he was hired. Being equal to what got Miles' on the hot seat with boosters and fans is ALSO not why he was hired.
He HAS TO be better than the 2010-2013 run...the run which, ultimately, began all the "underachieving" talk around Baton Rouge. 2014 and the collapse at the end of 2015 were what made the move possible, but it started years before that.
Posted on 6/24/19 at 10:58 am to The First Cut
How does that compare to the offensive players in O’s 2018 class?
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