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Message
re: Mark May just called GTech a "spread" offense
Posted on 12/31/08 at 8:15 am to hiveredtech
Posted on 12/31/08 at 8:15 am to hiveredtech
quote:
The term spread comes from the splits between the lineman
no it doesn't
quote:
While most teams are 1-2 feet between lineman...a spread offense "spreads" the lineman out 2-3 feet apart...such as ours.
5 years ago when TT was running the spread and PJ was in 1AA, nobody called GSU the "spread"
you know why? because it isn't
quote:
We have two slotbacks lined up tight just off outside and behind the tackles.
whoa, so you have 2 backs lined up in the box
LOOK HOW SPREAD OUT YOUR OFFENSE IS...4 skill position players in the box!
1
Posted on 12/31/08 at 8:18 am to gtne91
quote:
GT plays out of a spread formation. 4+ wideouts
3 RBs is not 4 WRs
quote:
Tiger Ellison's original run-and-shoot, before Mouse Davis got hold of it.
mouse davis is the true father of the run and shoot
quote:
Both Johnson and Leach have noted the similarity of the offenses GT and TT run.
Posted on 12/31/08 at 8:22 am to SlowFlowPro
I am done argueing with these ppl. They can call it what they want but its no more than the wing-t.
This post was edited on 12/31/08 at 8:27 am
Posted on 12/31/08 at 8:27 am to Ponchy Tiger
quote:
They can call it what they want but its not more than the wing-t.
Wing T is a single wing formation. This, if anything, is a double wing. Also, the winged T used Tight Ends.
Part of the distinction is the lack of use of Tight Ends. The ends are "spread" out.
Posted on 12/31/08 at 8:31 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
mouse davis is the true father of the run and shoot
Davis popularized it. He turned it into the pass happy offense we are familiar with. He put the QB in the shotgun. He isnt its father. Or, if you want, he can be the father, but Ellison is the grandfather.
Ellison designed it to be a run first offense, hence the name. If the D put too many men in the box, the QB would check to a "shoot" play instead.
Davis learned the offense from Ellison.
This post was edited on 12/31/08 at 8:32 am
Posted on 12/31/08 at 9:04 am to gtne91
quote:Most of the time Nebraska ran a double option, Oklahoma and Bama use to run more of a triple option.
not a "true" triple option like old Nebraska, etc
Posted on 12/31/08 at 9:05 am to Ponchy Tiger
quote:
I am done argueing with these ppl. They can call it what they want but its no more than the wing-t.
I'm not sure why you guys are soo defensive about this. We're just trying to have an actual football discussion. I heard this was a good board to do that on, I guess not.
Posted on 12/31/08 at 9:18 am to gtne91
quote:
Davis popularized it. He turned it into the pass happy offense we are familiar
yeah
he's the father of the run and shoot
quote:
Ellison designed it to be a run first offense, hence the name. If the D put too many men in the box, the QB would check to a "shoot" play instead.
mouse davis did this also
quote:
Davis learned the offense from Ellison.
Davis took his offense and molded it into what became the run and shoot
This post was edited on 12/31/08 at 9:19 am
Posted on 12/31/08 at 9:19 am to BerryGT
quote:
I heard this was a good board to do that on, I guess not.
for some reason this thread was moved from it's proper place to the rant
Posted on 12/31/08 at 9:26 am to SlowFlowPro
I don't know why I'm bothering since SFP is never wrong, but...
LINK
While I realize Wikipedia isn't always the most accurate, if you have a better reference, link it...
LINK
quote:
The fundamental nature of the spread offense involves spreading the field horizontally using 3, 4, and even 5-receiver sets (some implementations of the spread also feature wide splits between the offensive linemen).
quote:
While Steve Nuss is commonly referred to as the father of the spread offense, Glenn Ellison is the real father.[1] His version is known as the Run & Shoot offense; however, the scheme (which was originally started as a run-first offense in 1958) has evolved over the past 45 years into a much more complex scheme. Its first evolution came about in 1962 when Mouse Davis adapted his philosophy to Ellison's but created a more pass-first version.
While I realize Wikipedia isn't always the most accurate, if you have a better reference, link it...
Posted on 12/31/08 at 9:27 am to BerryGT
quote:Just too many pretend coaches and experts who don't know much...some do but many don't.
I'm not sure why you guys are soo defensive about this. We're just trying to have an actual football discussion. I heard this was a good board to do that on, I guess not.
Posted on 12/31/08 at 9:37 am to 225Tiger
there is also a lot of arguing about labels in this thread, which is often rather silly. GT's offensive sets and plays are whatever they are and the labels you apply to it don't change that much. after seeing GT play twice this year, I would not have called their offense a spread (as I understood the term) but it has been interesting to hear about what their offense does and how it could morph into more of a pass happy offense in the future.
Posted on 12/31/08 at 9:50 am to SlowFlowPro
It's a spread formation because of the OL splits and the 4 receivers outside the OT. Yes, the slots are tighter than Leach and Meyer have them, but they are there nonetheless. The QB is also under center. The reason the slots are tighter and the QB under center is because PJ's preference is a run-first option playbook. We actually run the triple option as a play only about 20% of the time or less.
Someone earlier ridiculed the fact that we have 4 receivers in this formation. Yes, it is true that we don't throw often as PJ prefers the run first. However, we do throw out of the formation to the slotbacks (A-backs in PJ's terminology), and that is attested by the fact that over 25% of the receptions this year were to those slots. Also, after WR Thomas, who had over 50% of all receptions this fall, the next 3 top receivers were all backs, with Dwyer, the TB (B-back in PJ's terminology) in that bunch, too.
PJ has said on numerous occasions that he wants to throw more, but didn't have the time this fall to work on that portion of his playbook. He had his hands full trying to teach the option to a team that was very unfamiliar with it. This is what he referenced also with regard to the bowl preparation. His offense is the original run and shoot formation from back in the mid-80's/early 90's. Check out Tracy Hamm's and Hawaii's stats from that time frame where PJ was OC.
I suspect we'll pass more this game that all other games except the Dook game. I look for 15-20 pass attempts depending upon how well your front 7 manages to stop the option.
Finally, someone also mentioned that we have a non-throwing QB. Josh Nesbitt passed for over 5000 yards in his HS career. He can throw, and has a canon for an arm. Accuracy has been a bit of an issue, but bear in mind that he was a drop-back passer in HS and has had to throw off the sprint most of the time in PJ's spread option offense.
Someone earlier ridiculed the fact that we have 4 receivers in this formation. Yes, it is true that we don't throw often as PJ prefers the run first. However, we do throw out of the formation to the slotbacks (A-backs in PJ's terminology), and that is attested by the fact that over 25% of the receptions this year were to those slots. Also, after WR Thomas, who had over 50% of all receptions this fall, the next 3 top receivers were all backs, with Dwyer, the TB (B-back in PJ's terminology) in that bunch, too.
PJ has said on numerous occasions that he wants to throw more, but didn't have the time this fall to work on that portion of his playbook. He had his hands full trying to teach the option to a team that was very unfamiliar with it. This is what he referenced also with regard to the bowl preparation. His offense is the original run and shoot formation from back in the mid-80's/early 90's. Check out Tracy Hamm's and Hawaii's stats from that time frame where PJ was OC.
I suspect we'll pass more this game that all other games except the Dook game. I look for 15-20 pass attempts depending upon how well your front 7 manages to stop the option.
Finally, someone also mentioned that we have a non-throwing QB. Josh Nesbitt passed for over 5000 yards in his HS career. He can throw, and has a canon for an arm. Accuracy has been a bit of an issue, but bear in mind that he was a drop-back passer in HS and has had to throw off the sprint most of the time in PJ's spread option offense.
This post was edited on 12/31/08 at 9:51 am
Posted on 12/31/08 at 9:51 am to N.O. via West-Cal
quote:
it has been interesting to hear about what their offense does and how it could morph into more of a pass happy offense in the future.
It will never* be pass happy. The mix will change some, maybe from 85/15 to about 70/30. With games where teams sell out to stop the run so the mix may even favor pass for the game. As the year went on, we saw much more trips formation and less of only the double slot formation. More proficiency in running the run-an-shoot package will just add another element the defense has to worry about.
One thing I like about the mix is that the zone blitz was basically created to shut down the run-and-shoot. Regular blitzes got eaten alive by the r&s. However, blitzing against the TO is a quick form of suicide. Blitz to stop the R&S and the TO takes it to the house. Play base defense to stop the TO and the R&S will pick you apart.
We wont see much of it tonight, but I like our future.
*never is a long long time. Who knows what the future really holds.
This post was edited on 12/31/08 at 9:54 am
Posted on 12/31/08 at 10:06 am to Addison Tiger
that wikipedia article is fricking horrible
hell TT doesn't even go to wide spread with the OL most of the game. neither does UF
the pats don't
and the wildcat is not the fricking spread
the run and shoot really isn't either
the spread is a 4-5 WR dominated offense generally using short-medium passes instead of a running game. a classic spread team is texas tech or the mumme air raid scheme
the spread option developed from the spread under rich rodriguez. you spread out the D with 3-4 WR sets and run zone-read option plays from the formation to keep the D at bay. there are different types of the spread option
there is a true spread option, which was once rare but is becoming more common. UT in 2005 is the best example of a true spread option. lots of option. almost exclusive spread formations. lots of passing/play action out of the formation
on one end of the spectrum is the run-first spread option. this offense was best seen with WV from about the middle of 2005 on through 2007. it was a true option offense that was run out of spread formations. the passing game was rudimentary at best, but it was used
on the other end is the pass-first spread option. the new UT offense with mccoy from 2006-2007 (he's a running threat now), or the OU offense the past few years are examples of this. the pass is the main offense. the option is limited, but it does exist. OU went from a true spread to dabbling with spread option over the past 8 years
but what happened is that journalists got lazy and America is dumb, so all of this became "the spread." NOW the fricked up part is that ANY OPTION OFFENSE is called "the spread" now.
also since people are dumb and they think that all of these different offenses are "the spread," they're clamoring for their team to adopt "the spread." so what happens? coaches straight up lie and say they're going to use the spread to gear up the fanbase
-the double/triple option of GT - not a spread
-the wild x formation - not a spread
-WV from 2005-2007 - not the spread
hell TT doesn't even go to wide spread with the OL most of the game. neither does UF
the pats don't
and the wildcat is not the fricking spread
the run and shoot really isn't either
the spread is a 4-5 WR dominated offense generally using short-medium passes instead of a running game. a classic spread team is texas tech or the mumme air raid scheme
the spread option developed from the spread under rich rodriguez. you spread out the D with 3-4 WR sets and run zone-read option plays from the formation to keep the D at bay. there are different types of the spread option
there is a true spread option, which was once rare but is becoming more common. UT in 2005 is the best example of a true spread option. lots of option. almost exclusive spread formations. lots of passing/play action out of the formation
on one end of the spectrum is the run-first spread option. this offense was best seen with WV from about the middle of 2005 on through 2007. it was a true option offense that was run out of spread formations. the passing game was rudimentary at best, but it was used
on the other end is the pass-first spread option. the new UT offense with mccoy from 2006-2007 (he's a running threat now), or the OU offense the past few years are examples of this. the pass is the main offense. the option is limited, but it does exist. OU went from a true spread to dabbling with spread option over the past 8 years
but what happened is that journalists got lazy and America is dumb, so all of this became "the spread." NOW the fricked up part is that ANY OPTION OFFENSE is called "the spread" now.
also since people are dumb and they think that all of these different offenses are "the spread," they're clamoring for their team to adopt "the spread." so what happens? coaches straight up lie and say they're going to use the spread to gear up the fanbase
-the double/triple option of GT - not a spread
-the wild x formation - not a spread
-WV from 2005-2007 - not the spread
Posted on 12/31/08 at 10:36 am to SlowFlowPro
The key to this base formation is the balance and there's so much you can do out of it without showing your hand too early. You have single, double, and triple option, power, counter/misdirection, traps and can easily get into trips and still have the threat of going 4 vertical if you want. One big plus in college b/c of NCAA rules that some HS get to play under unlike La. which has National Federation rules, is blocking below the waist downfield.
One of things DC hates is to see a balanced formation b/c you don't know what to expect. It will be interesting to see how LSU attacks it or stands there and tries to find the ball.
One of things DC hates is to see a balanced formation b/c you don't know what to expect. It will be interesting to see how LSU attacks it or stands there and tries to find the ball.
Posted on 12/31/08 at 10:36 am to SlowFlowPro
LINK
"The Golden Bears said all week the spread option offense was tough to simulate in practice, and they weren't wrong."
"The Golden Bears said all week the spread option offense was tough to simulate in practice, and they weren't wrong."
Posted on 12/31/08 at 10:42 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
a classic spread team is texas tech or the mumme air raid scheme
Actually, a classic spread team would be Dutch Meyer's TCU spread with Sammy Baugh as QB. He wrote the book on the spread in 1952:
Spread Formation Football available from Amazon (expensive too).
BTW, TT is the Mumme air raid scheme. Leach was his OC at Kentucky. Leach has changed it a bit since they separated, but thats football evolution.
The Air Raid was actually a derivative of BYU's offense. Im sure it was greatly influenced by Meyer's TCU offense.
Posted on 12/31/08 at 10:57 am to gtne91
quote:
BTW, TT is the Mumme air raid scheme. Leach was his OC at Kentucky.
i know
Posted on 12/31/08 at 11:45 am to Ponchy Tiger
sloflow - the offense has long been referred to as a spread option. you have a fullback, 2 SLOTS and two wide outs in the basic formation. lineman have splits of 2-3 feet and you run the mid-line option. 
ponchy - your wing-t statement is bogus
ponchy - your wing-t statement is bogus
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