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Started By
Message
re: Is Mainieri on the hot seat for next year?
Posted on 6/18/12 at 6:01 pm to Stevo
Posted on 6/18/12 at 6:01 pm to Stevo
quote:
catholictigerfan
I won't quote your entire post because of its length, but will quote relevant portions to address your argument.
Off the bat, I think you're comparing apples and oranges in terms basketball and baseball. Resources are different, historical factors are different, etc. I think it's a very convoluted argument you're trying to make in justifying how difficult it is to win the SEC baseball championship compared to an SEC basketball championship.
To entertain your argument though, a few thoughts:
quote:I'd argue we are way past the point, as a program, where we should care about SEC Championships. Once you've won a National Championship in any sport, are conference championships still the measure of success? In football and basketball, probably because they haven't had the consistent and extensive success that baseball has. But for baseball, it's hard for me to think of SEC Championships as indicative, alone, as indicative of successful seasons.
but pretty much Kentucky will win a SEC almost every single year. Noone at that school cares they should win a SEC title, all that matters for them is the national championship. That is it.
quote:
Baseball is different
quote:
Baseball
Kentucky (only based on this year)
Tennessee
Florida (number 2)
South Carolina (top school as of late)
Vanderbilt
Georgia
Alabama
Auburn
Arkansas
LSU
Mississippi
Mississippi State (scary at the end of the year)
Bold teams who can compete for a title with USCe year in year out. in bold
I think it's a bit premature to state that, based solely on their performance this year, Kentucky and Miss. St are primed to compete for SEC Championships year in, year out. Also, Arkansas hasn't won a championship since 2004 so I'm not sure how you can legitimately argue they can compete for a championship every year. If you remove those teams, you've basically highlighted the same number of teams that can or are expected to win the SEC Championship
quote:
so SEC baseball is a much tougher conference.
I think that's debatable.
quote:
at kentucky in basketball noone cares if you win a SEC title, its nice but won't keep your job.
at LSU in baseball if you win a SEC title, there is good chance they keep you around a couple more years.
If you are only winning SEC titles, though, I'm not sure, which is why I've said that not making Omaha once in 4 years is certainly a metric.
Imagine if Mainieri was just winning SEC titles every year but never made Omaha. Would people be happy with that? Sure, we'd have SEC titles, but no trips to Omaha. At the very least, I think it would indicate that his talent or coaching wasn't meeting expectations if he was good enough to win the SEC (which is inarguably the toughest conference) but not good enough to make Omaha (which normally requires you not even having to play another SEC team).
quote:
which AD are you giving this credit to?
Confused because I'm not giving any AD credit for anything. I was speaking to the AD's responsibility in maintaining the prestige of the program.
This post was edited on 6/18/12 at 6:07 pm
1
Posted on 6/18/12 at 6:11 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
I'm not even going to dignify a discussion with you.
Posted on 6/18/12 at 6:14 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
because it shows he is a hell of a coach, he makes something apparently not good and makes it really good.
But it's his responsibility to get the proper talent there. I'm not going to give him credit for doing a bad job recruiting because he "coaches them up." That's like complimenting a chef for making a really good turd sandwich. Sure, you did a terrible job picking ingredients, but you made a really good poop sandwich.
I realize I'm getting tangential here, but if he's such a good coach (which I believe he is), then imagine what he could've done the past 3 years with the proper and customary talent level. The point of the matter is, however, he completely dropped the ball recruiting-wise following the National Championship. Undoubtedly, there's been a decline in talent since then and it's made all the more disappointing because he's shown the ability to actually attract the talent to win it all. So, why hasn't he done it consistently? If we are truly trending upwards as some have suggested, then why did we trend down?
If he gets credit for having a good year this year, then he deserves blame for poorly recruiting and building this team. It may have overachieved in winning an SEC Championship, but that shouldn't be the measure of success even with all the parity in college baseball.
This post was edited on 6/18/12 at 6:22 pm
Posted on 6/18/12 at 6:28 pm to Joe Joe Joe
There is just no winning with you. You've pretty much all but said you expect Omaha ever year.
You said a coach who won SEC titles who didn't make it to Omaha wouldn't be good enough....yet Mainieri has taken LSU to the CWS twice
You said a coach who won SEC titles who didn't make it to Omaha wouldn't be good enough....yet Mainieri has taken LSU to the CWS twice
Posted on 6/18/12 at 6:31 pm to josh336
quote:
expect Omaha ever year
I think we all kinda do in a way. I expect us to win it all every year, but I realize that it isn't realistic and I'm not headhunting if we don't win it.
We are all horribly spoiled from the 90's...
Posted on 6/18/12 at 6:31 pm to josh336
I think making Omaha every year is unrealistic. But I don't like that it's possible for us to have Katz' class be the first one in about 20 years to never go to Omaha. I also don't think that asking a coach to not lose a series to Auburn 3 years straight is unreasonable.
Posted on 6/18/12 at 6:33 pm to ProjectP2294
quote:
But I don't like that it's possible for us to have Katz' class be the first one in about 20 years to never go to Omaha.
No one likes it, but it happens to everyone. But lets not get ahead of ourselves. They haven't even played next season yet, one that we should all expect LSU to host, they will be loaded.
Posted on 6/18/12 at 6:36 pm to josh336
quote:
You've pretty much all but said you expect Omaha ever year.
Where did I say that? You previously asked me what my expectations are and this was my response:
quote:
First, LSU should host a regional EVERY year and LSU should play (notice I don't say "host") in a Super Regional every year. To date, that has not happened. Also, you'll notice those goals would require making the tournament every year, something that has also not happened.
Second, LSU should never be in a position where, after 4 years (i.e. one complete cycle of recruiting, developing and coaching kids), they don't make Omaha. I don't care about the parity or the bats or the lack of talent.
So to summarize for you since you seem to have a reading problem: make the postseason every year, host a regional every year, play in a Super Regional every year, and make Omaha at least once every 4 years. Was that really so hard to understand?
So, no, I have not pretty much said that I expect Omaha every year. Good try, though.
quote:
You said a coach who won SEC titles who didn't make it to Omaha wouldn't be good enough....yet Mainieri has taken LSU to the CWS twice
Well considering I was using that statement as an example to prove my point regarding what should be the factors in judging one's job performance, I'm not entirely sure how to address your claim of my "alleged" position.
Nonetheless, yes, I think a coach who wins SEC titles every year but fails to make Omaha should be considered under-performing. Because if they are good enough to win the SEC against tougher competition, they would logically be good enough to win 5 games in the postseason against lesser competition.
I was speaking in the abstract, josh. Do a little more reading next time and really think about what I was saying before you try to come attack me and catch me in a contradiction.
This post was edited on 6/18/12 at 6:38 pm
Posted on 6/18/12 at 6:37 pm to josh336
quote:
No one likes it, but it happens to everyone.
Everyone doesn't invest the amount of money we do into their baseball program. Everyone doesn't have the history we do. For LSU baseball, making the CWS at least once every 4 years is not unreasonable expectations.
Posted on 6/18/12 at 6:38 pm to Joe Joe Joe
So Mainieri has met your Omaha expectations
Posted on 6/18/12 at 6:39 pm to ProjectP2294
We've made it twice in 6 years, we are on schedule according to ya'll
Posted on 6/18/12 at 6:40 pm to josh336
quote:
So Mainieri has met your Omaha expectations
I have not once advocated for "firing" Mainieri or putting him on the "hot seat" after this previous season (2012). NOT ONCE.
Every single one of my statements has been regarding what happens if he does not make Omaha in 2013, which will have been 4 years since he last made it. Good lord, man.
Posted on 6/18/12 at 6:41 pm to Joe Joe Joe
quote:
I don't think any one of those kids takes satisfaction in being "one win away from the CWS."
Of course they don't now...they wanted to win it all and they are disappointed they didn't.
But we are fans and not players. I can be proud of the teams recovery from last season and the effort they put in to win the SEC, a regional, and get one win from the CWS.
Of course, I don't live my life vicariously though the efforts of 18-22 year olds and therefore I don't get all that worked up over missing the CWS by one win.
We will get there again...it's not like we haven't missed making it before and its not like we never been there.
Posted on 6/18/12 at 6:41 pm to Joe Joe Joe
quote:
Every single one of my statements has been regarding what happens if he does not make Omaha in 2013, which will have been 4 years since he last made it
So if we don't make it to Omaha next year, do you think he should be fired?
Posted on 6/18/12 at 6:43 pm to josh336
quote:
We've made it twice in 6 years, we are on schedule according to ya'll
For the record, I'm not currently saying we should fire Mainieri right now. (I have said it at other times this past season though) But I would be a lot more supportive of him if he didn't throw his players under the bus so much, if he didn't act like a whiny bitch all the time, if he didn't hire and keep assistants based solely on nepotism, and if he didn't make retarded statements about hitting coaches being overrated.
Those are not unreasonable expectations either.
Posted on 6/18/12 at 6:46 pm to josh336
quote:
Of course, I don't live my life vicariously though the efforts of 18-22 year olds and therefore I don't get all that worked up over missing the CWS by one win.
If you are implying that I live vicariously through a bunch of 18-22 year old baseball players, you probably couldn't be further from the truth.
quote:
So if we don't make it to Omaha next year, do you think he should be fired?
I think you have serious discussions about it.
What's funny is I've never even suggested that they fire him next year, but every single person who's attacked my position or argument is operating under the assumption that I'm some unreasonable person who can't recognize all the parity and changes in college baseball, blah blah blah, and that I want him fired if he doesn't make Omaha next year.
For the record, this was my initial statement:
quote:
If Mainieri doesn't make Omaha next year, things could get really interesting.
I don't know if you fire him. I'd probably lean towards not firing him because he is a good coach and you always worry about getting someone. However, simply because you're a good coach doesn't mean that you can skirt expectations and I think it would be reasonably justified if they did fire him next year if he failed to make Omaha.
This post was edited on 6/18/12 at 6:47 pm
Posted on 6/18/12 at 6:52 pm to josh336
quote:
No one likes it, but it happens to everyone. But lets not get ahead of ourselves. They haven't even played next season yet, one that we should all expect LSU to host, they will be loaded.
I hear you say this, but I don't see all this talent you are talking about in terms of being loaded. Our fundamentals are bad, our defense is not that strong, and we can't hit. I personally see the talent declining here over the past few years....had we not had excellent pitching this year, we would have had a very rough year...we can't always expect that.
LSU has led the nation in attendance, has a brand new facility, has won 6 titles in the last 20 years, and appeared at Omaha about 15 times in last 26 years. Expecting them to make it every year is unrealistic, and expecting them to win it every year is way unrealistic....but a program like lsu is one of the elite programs in the nation, and should be able to get top talent and top coaching....IF LSU does not go to Omaha next year, then it will make 5 times in 6 years that they didn't go. I remember when we expected to not only go, but be competetive. I don't think that is too much to respect from an elite program. You guys love you some PM...but you have to admit the coaches he has hired haven't exactly been great...and that talent he has gotten isn't all that great. Y'all say he overachieved.....well he is responsible for bring in talent and coaches......we should overachieve every once in a while. He isn't a terrible coach....but our defense and hitting are just not that good...and we run the bases terrible..poor fundamentals.....
Posted on 6/18/12 at 6:54 pm to Joe Joe Joe
He admitted publicly he was not as hands as he was when he got here. Would of canned him then for not fulfilling his obligation of a coach. Would your boss keep you around if you admitted slacking off at work regardless of what success you had before? First 2 years Omaha bound. Since then, no Omaha and admitted to slacking off. Hot seat? You damn right he is.
Posted on 6/18/12 at 6:58 pm to VC
quote:
I hear you say this, but I don't see all this talent you are talking about in terms of being loaded. Our fundamentals are bad, our defense is not that strong, and we can't hit. I personally see the talent declining here over the past few years....had we not had excellent pitching this year, we would have had a very rough year...we can't always expect that.
LSU has led the nation in attendance, has a brand new facility, has won 6 titles in the last 20 years, and appeared at Omaha about 15 times in last 26 years. Expecting them to make it every year is unrealistic, and expecting them to win it every year is way unrealistic....but a program like lsu is one of the elite programs in the nation, and should be able to get top talent and top coaching....IF LSU does not go to Omaha next year, then it will make 5 times in 6 years that they didn't go. I remember when we expected to not only go, but be competetive. I don't think that is too much to respect from an elite program. You guys love you some PM...but you have to admit the coaches he has hired haven't exactly been great...and that talent he has gotten isn't all that great. Y'all say he overachieved.....well he is responsible for bring in talent and coaches......we should overachieve every once in a while. He isn't a terrible coach....but our defense and hitting are just not that good...and we run the bases terrible..poor fundamentals.....
Agree with pretty much everything you say. Just for the record, if they didn't make it next year, it would be only the 4th time in the past 6 years. They made it in 2008 and 2009. The problem, obviously, is with 4 straight years of not making it.
quote:
He admitted publicly he was not as hands as he was when he got here. Would of canned him then for not fulfilling his obligation of a coach.
Therein lies much of the problem. Yes, he admitted to dropping the ball after winning in 2009. But should an apology really be a justifiable reason for the drop in talent level? Does that apology buy him another couple of years to fix the problem?
I'm glad he recognized his problem and admitted his error, but that doesn't change the expectations and that shouldn't buy him more time. This was a product of his own doing and he remains accountable for it.
This post was edited on 6/18/12 at 7:00 pm
Posted on 6/18/12 at 8:13 pm to Joe Joe Joe
quote:
I hear you say this, but I don't see all this talent you are talking about in terms of being loaded. Our fundamentals are bad, our defense is not that strong, and we can't hit. I personally see the talent declining here over the past few years....had we not had excellent pitching this year, we would have had a very rough year...we can't always expect that.
The talent they refer to is what we have coming back from this year. Which is considerable considering we won the SEC outright and hosted a super. We only lose our left side of the infield, so only two from the everyday lineup, and two pitchers. That said however, there are a few I'd like to see improved or replaced.
I gotta disagree with the defense. Our defense was solid this year and led the SEC. That's one complaint I don't have. Only thing I'd like more of is speed in the outfield.
I completely agree our fundamentals at the plate and on the base paths are completely atrocious.
quote:
LSU has led the nation in attendance 17 straight years, has a brand new facility, has won 6 titles in the last 20 years, and appeared in Omaha 15 times in last 26 years. Expecting them to make it every year is unrealistic, and expecting them to win it every year is way unrealistic....but a program like lsu is one of the elite programs in the nation, and should be able to get top talent and top coaching....
IF LSU does not go to Omaha next year, then it will make 5 times in 6 years that they didn't go. I remember when we expected to not only go, but be competetive. I don't think that is too much to respect from an elite program. You guys love you some PM...but you have to admit the coaches he has hired haven't exactly been great...and that talent he has gotten isn't all that great. Y'all say he overachieved.....well he is responsible for bring in talent and coaches......we should overachieve every once in a while. He isn't a terrible coach....but our defense and hitting are just not that good...and we run the bases terrible..poor fundamentals.....
Skip Bertman took over the program in 1984 and missed the tournament in his first year. After that he only missed the tournament once more and that was in 1988, year 5 of his tenure at LSU. Skip's first trip to Omaha was 1986, third year with the program. After that, the longest gap he had between Omaha appearances was ONE year.
The longest gap we've had post-skip is 3 years (2005-2007 & 2010-2012). Mainieri got here and did the same as Skip did tourney wise, missed the postseason in his 1st and 5th seasons. In 6 seasons, he has 1 less appearance in the CWS and 1 more championship.
I put the first missed year for PM on Smoke, and PM righted the ship after that. But, we should not be missing the post season. Period. The program is too far along for that to happen. We're at the point where hosting a regional every year and a super every other should be a given. This facility was built for the post season and has only seen 2. I hate this crap I hear from him about new bats and competition in NCAA baseball. There are teams that do it year in and year out. LSU should still be one of them. We have more invested and more fan support than any other team in the country.
We have top coaching in Alan Dunn. I can legitimately see top round pitchers coming to LSU to get coached by a true big league pitching coach, get an education, and improve their draft stock. There is absolutely no reason we shouldn't be able to do the same with a big league batting coach. We have the resources and support to make that happen.
I think next year is a big year for Paul
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