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Message
re: If Bear comes back, I predict
Posted on 6/5/24 at 10:27 am to Metaloctopus
Posted on 6/5/24 at 10:27 am to Metaloctopus
quote:
You're talking about home run totals? I said "natural power".
No, he was talking about peak and average exit velocities.
Jones hits the ball very hard. But there are guys in conference that hit it as hard or harder. Cags and Laviolette are among them.
2
Posted on 6/5/24 at 10:30 am to ProjectP2294
70 power
Posted on 6/5/24 at 10:32 am to Metaloctopus
Power is graded in a vacuum. I’m not talking about any outside factors such as park or HR totals.
Posted on 6/5/24 at 10:33 am to Lester Earl
quote:
Bat speed doesn’t mean he has the most power.
I mean pure bat speed literally translate to how hard you hit the ball dude
Posted on 6/5/24 at 10:39 am to ProjectP2294
quote:
No, he was talking about peak and average exit velocities.
Jones hits the ball very hard. But there are guys in conference that hit it as hard or harder. Cags and Laviolette are among them.
Well if that's all we're looking at, than that's fine. I'm not disputing exit velocities. That's a quality of contact issue, and one of the things I mentioned in an earlier post is how Jones is able to take off balance swings, or even get jammed, and still hit it way out. The fact that he's not as pure of a hitter as some others, means he's not going to square it up as much.
He tends to let the ball travel, I guess as a way to stay back for offspeed, and then hits these towering shots the opposite way. As his recognition improves, his strength, which is the natural power I'm referring to, puts him, if not at the top of his class, then certainly right next to it. Jay compared his power to that of Mark McGwire last year. I'd have to agree with him.
Posted on 6/5/24 at 10:43 am to thunderbird1100
It’s one of the measures that leads to power, for sure.
Find how many balls he has hit +116 like Caglianone lol
Find how many balls he has hit +116 like Caglianone lol
Posted on 6/5/24 at 10:48 am to Lester Earl
quote:
Power is graded in a vacuum. I’m not talking about any outside factors such as park or HR totals.
What vacuum are we talking about? It seems we are referring to two different things. You're saying exit velocity, I'm talking about pure strength. Bryce Harper finished last year 15th in the majors in average exit velocity, for reference, behind the likes of such superstar power hitters as Christopher Morel and Sean Murphy, just to name a couple. I don't think anyone would argue that those guys actually have more power than Harper. So we need a little more information in our vacuum, it would seem.
This post was edited on 6/5/24 at 10:51 am
Posted on 6/5/24 at 10:59 am to Metaloctopus
It’s not just exit velocity, but exit velocity encompasses many different things that result how far you hit the ball, especially when you couple it with other available info. When this starts to accumulate over a large sample size, you have a pretty good idea of a players profile.
Or are you under the impression that your eye test is a more formidable measure than data? He looks bigger than everyone else, so he must have the most pure strength?
Or are you under the impression that your eye test is a more formidable measure than data? He looks bigger than everyone else, so he must have the most pure strength?
Posted on 6/5/24 at 11:03 am to Metaloctopus
quote:
Bryce Harper finished last year 15th in the majors in average exit velocity, for reference, behind the likes of such superstar power hitters as Christopher Morel and Sean Murphy, just to name a couple
It’s not always linear or requires a blanket statement to be made that one has more power due to high exit velo, but like I said, it’s a pretty good starting point.
These are the AB/HR of these 3 players you mentioned from 2023. Do you care to try & match who is who?
HR every 14.9 ab
HR every 17.6 ab
HR every 21.7 ab
Posted on 6/5/24 at 11:11 am to Lester Earl
quote:
It’s not just exit velocity, but exit velocity encompasses many different things that result how far you hit the ball, especially when you couple it with other available info. When this starts to accumulate over a large sample size, you have a pretty good idea of a players profile.
Or are you under the impression that your eye test is a more formidable measure than data? He looks bigger than everyone else, so he must have the most pure strength?
Lester, dude, we're not competing against each other. No need to be hostile with me. What does my eye test have to do with DATA I just provided you? You think I'm just a dummy who looks at big people and makes assumptions? There are a lot of big dudes, and some of them have next to no power. It stands to reason, that if you're timing is not as good as those who are better pure hitters, you're not going to have the highest exit velocity. Matt Olson led the majors in homers by a mile last season, but was only 11th in average exit velocity. Lots of guys square it up more than he does, but few measure up to his pure strength.
That's all I'm saying about Jones. He hit 28 home runs, while mostly being behind fastballs, trying to stay back for the offspeed. There is nothing incorrect about anything I just said. All I said was Jones "might" have the best natural power, and I've given you information that makes a reasonable case. You keep repeating that exit velocity, and now you say "it encompasses many different things", as if that is any sort of information. It encompasses how hard it's hit. That's it. You have to hit the ball high enough, obviously, but exit velocity encompasses precisely what it suggests
Posted on 6/5/24 at 11:16 am to Lgrnwd
40 homers and 55 RBIs from the leadoff spot
Posted on 6/5/24 at 11:18 am to Metaloctopus
quote:
Lester, dude, we're not competing against each other. No need to be hostile with me
He doesn't do very well with other posters intelligent enough to argue back using logic.
Posted on 6/5/24 at 11:21 am to Lester Earl
quote:
It’s not always linear or requires a blanket statement to be made that one has more power due to high exit velo, but like I said, it’s a pretty good starting point.
Of course, It's a fine starting point. It just doesn't always mean as much for every player.
quote:
These are the AB/HR of these 3 players you mentioned from 2023. Do you care to try & match who is who?
HR every 14.9 ab
HR every 17.6 ab
HR every 21.7 ab
Why would I need to match them? I gave you their average exit velocities. That was the data point you chose to go to war on with me, so I chose it to make a comparison. And what I showed is that Harper finished behind those guys in average exit velocity, while no one would argue that those guys have more power than Harper.
But I can guess, because I know you're out for a "gotcha" that you're going to tell me those guys are ahead of Harper in home runs per at bat last year. I can believe that. Because it took him forever last year to start hitting home runs, kind of like how everyone in the Braves notoriously powerful lineup is struggling to hit for power, except for Marcell Ozuna.
So what does that mean, Lester? Does it mean, perhaps, that projecting who has more power based on exit velocity is not always reliable, because sometimes you just don't get to your power as much from one season to the next, sometimes?
Posted on 6/5/24 at 11:25 am to Metaloctopus
Trust me, this is not me being hostile despite your patronizing nature.
Everyone can see Jared jones has monster power. But when you are talking about who is the best of something, or who has the most of something, you have to split hairs.
And the action of hitting ball hard includes many different factors. Stemming from biomechanics, strength, hand eye coordination, etc.
There is a process, and there is a result. The result is exit velocity. The process to achieve a great exit velocity is different for everyone based on many different facrors..
Everyone can see Jared jones has monster power. But when you are talking about who is the best of something, or who has the most of something, you have to split hairs.
quote:
It encompasses how hard it's hit.
And the action of hitting ball hard includes many different factors. Stemming from biomechanics, strength, hand eye coordination, etc.
There is a process, and there is a result. The result is exit velocity. The process to achieve a great exit velocity is different for everyone based on many different facrors..
Posted on 6/5/24 at 11:31 am to Lester Earl
quote:
Trust me, this is not me being hostile despite your patronizing nature.
Everyone can see Jared jones has monster power. But when you are talking about who is the best of something, or who has the most of something, you have to split hairs.
How am I patronizing you? I have gone out of my way not to let myself get dragged into petty words with you. I'm calmly stating my case. Are we splitting hairs? Yeah, maybe. I didn't say Jared IS the best at anything. I said "might be", and I think my case is more than reasonable. That doesn't mean that he necessarily is the best natural power hitter. Like you said, we're splitting hairs. Whats wrong with that? I thought we were having a conversation about Jared Jones in this thread.
quote:
And the action of hitting ball hard includes many different factors. Stemming from biomechanics, strength, hand eye coordination, etc.
There is a process, and there is a result. The result is exit velocity. The process to achieve a great exit velocity is different for everyone based on many different facrors..
You think I don't realize ALL of these things? Lester, you have been patronizing me this entire time, with comments like these. The factors are, to name a few. timing, bat speed and strength. Jared checks those last two boxes. But his timing is behind, though much improved. No matter how many factors you wanna cite, exit velocity just means how hard it's hit. We all get that. And yet it doesn't always translate to the most home runs.
This post was edited on 6/5/24 at 11:38 am
Posted on 6/5/24 at 11:39 am to Metaloctopus
quote:
Why would I need to match them?
quote:
gave you their average exit velocities. That was the data point you chose to go to war on with me,
You have repeatedly tried to argue over caveats that I admit are present. At least twice
The players with the highest exit velocity’s will not always have the most HRs. However, it objectively correlates to positive results.
Posted on 6/5/24 at 11:43 am to Metaloctopus
quote:
We all get that. And yet it doesn't always translate to the most home runs.
Again, I never once said this or alluded to this.
Posted on 6/5/24 at 11:56 am to Lester Earl
quote:
You have repeatedly tried to argue over caveats that I admit are present. At least twice
The players with the highest exit velocity’s will not always have the most HRs. However, it objectively correlates to positive results.
And I have admitted to this point, as well. This is why I told you we are not competing against each other. I acknowledge where your points are valid, and we both know mine are as well. So it really doesn't matter if Jones is the best, the 5th best, or the 10th best power hitter in this class. The point is that he has a case. You've repeated all of your qualifiers multiple times, as well.
And what were you laughing about? I know what you were doing, and I said as much. So why don't you tell me if you think because Harper had a down year for home runs, that that means the players I cited have more power than Harper? Because unless that is your stance, it is irrelevant as to who finished ahead of him in home runs per at bat. The much larger sample size of Bryce Harper's career, vs their careers tells you who has more power. Matt Olson, as I said, led the majors in homers. He finished 7 spots behind his teammate, Acuna, in average exit velocity, despite having 13 more home runs. And Acuna had more at bats.
But we've already both made these same points, and now we're going in a circle, aren't we? We're really not far apart, but we disagree on how much weight to put on certain things.
Posted on 6/5/24 at 11:57 am to Lester Earl
quote:
Again, I never once said this or alluded to this.
Then why are you arguing with me? Let's just agree that Jones is a dang powerful hitter, and hope that he comes back.
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