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4-2-5 vs 3-4 and Stopping the Spread
Posted on 5/6/20 at 1:38 pm
Posted on 5/6/20 at 1:38 pm
Found this article and thought it was pretty interesting. Espcially since they use Aranda's defense at LSu as the poster child for the 3-4 "Tite" defense
LINK
Lays out the pros and cons of both and here si the TL;DR version
4-2-5
Pros: 2 edge rushers, can use different coverages
Cons: B gap WLB issues that are exactly why RPOS offenses take advantage of.
3-4 or what they call a "TITE" formation
Pros: gets rid of that B Gap confusion and pushed everything outside
Cons: only 1 edge rusher on passing downs and limits DL's pass rushing potential as they generally al need to be bigger.
Food for thought in our transition, but I don't remember enough about Bo's defense to break down what he does now.
LINK
Lays out the pros and cons of both and here si the TL;DR version
4-2-5
Pros: 2 edge rushers, can use different coverages
Cons: B gap WLB issues that are exactly why RPOS offenses take advantage of.
3-4 or what they call a "TITE" formation
Pros: gets rid of that B Gap confusion and pushed everything outside
Cons: only 1 edge rusher on passing downs and limits DL's pass rushing potential as they generally al need to be bigger.
Food for thought in our transition, but I don't remember enough about Bo's defense to break down what he does now.
3
Posted on 5/6/20 at 2:12 pm to SammyTiger
4-2-5 nickel is the only way to play modern football.
Posted on 5/6/20 at 2:17 pm to Tiger Nation 84
quote:
4-2-5 nickel is the only way to play modern football.
IDK its a pretty interesting argument
Edited:People forget that we had a very good defense in 2018, because the last two games just blow out the statistics.
I actualyl ment 2018 when I said last year. I think the 2019 issues were more jsut executing than the scheme
but through 11 games last year we had a top 10 defense. 7 OTs on a case defense and losing half out players mucked up the end of the year.
This post was edited on 5/6/20 at 3:08 pm
Posted on 5/6/20 at 2:39 pm to SammyTiger
quote:
People forget that we had a very good defense last year, because the last two games just blow out the statistics.
They got the job done but there was hiccups along the way.
Not a single second half stop against Texas
Couldn't get off the field against Florida
28 second half points to Bama
Ole Miss sets records
Defense seemed to turn it around after the Ole Miss debacle. I think getting Delpit healthy was big too.
Posted on 5/6/20 at 2:56 pm to SammyTiger
quote:
IDK its a pretty interesting argument
It's a very interesting argument. I think in a vacuum I'd prefer the 3-4, but at a place like LSU I lean more towards the 4-2-5 based on the type of athletes we recruit.
quote:
People forget that we had a very good defense last year, because the last two games just blow out the statistics.
I think we really under-performed based on the talent we had on defense. We just had five players selected in the first three rounds of the NFL draft. Stingley will probably be a top five pick. Shelvin and Stevens will likely be drafted in the first few rounds as well.
I don't think it'd be easy to find examples of other defenses with that much talent that finished where we did statistically.
Posted on 5/6/20 at 3:02 pm to SammyTiger
quote:
People forget that we had a very good defense last year, because the last two games just blow out the statistics.
There is no perfect defense and it is always situational for down/distance and strength or capability of the opponent. I have felt for a long time that the 3-4 we ran was more flexible than the 4-2-5. One thing Aranda was good at in the 3-4 was putting the OL in conflict such that you might have 3 to block 2 on one side and 2 to block 3 on the other.
There is one thing that I know for a fact. The coaches know more than me and if what they are doing is not working then they will do something else...
Posted on 5/6/20 at 3:10 pm to southdowns84
quote:
I think we really under-performed based on the talent we had on defense.
Coming into the year we had to patch a group of safeties together and figure out who was going to play LB. The DL was pretty consistent with the exception of the simultaneous injuries of Lawrence and Logan.
Outside of Delpit, it took half the year to get the safety position ironed out.
As for LB, Queen was not even starting for the first 3 games or so and Divinity who was a penciled in starter after last season missed 9 games due to suspension.
If you track the performance of the defense from start to finish of the season it grew every week and actually was best when it was needed in the playoffs. Several guys in the LB and DB group had to learn and gain experience this season. We have to remember that with the evolution of the three yr player you have to rebuild every year now. At no time last year were they bad but they were definitely better at the end of the season.
Posted on 5/6/20 at 3:27 pm to Tiger Nation 84
I like the 4-2-5. Fast atheletes we seem to be able to recruit well. The key to me is the 2 guys in the middle and that niclel back. Brooks is a guy that would fit that mold and there are plenty Brooks' out there. Having 2 linebackers that are big and fast also makes it work. I never did like the 3-4. Not enough pressure on qb and when you blitz you don't have much in the middle for draw or delayed handoffs.
Posted on 5/6/20 at 4:20 pm to Tiger on the Rag
Where does the drop linebacker play in it?
Posted on 5/6/20 at 5:04 pm to Tiger Nation 84
quote:
4-2-5 nickel is the only way to play modern football.
You’d never know LSU just won the national championship.
Posted on 5/6/20 at 5:10 pm to Penrod
I know no one read the article, but it does explain why we did what we did
realistically the defense at the beginning of the year had more to do with execution that system.
realistically the defense at the beginning of the year had more to do with execution that system.
Posted on 5/6/20 at 5:21 pm to GetmorewithLes
quote:
At no time last year were they bad but they were definitely better at the end of the season.
We were absolutely awful against Ole Miss, against Texas in the 2nd half, and in parts of the game against Vanderbilt.
There are injuries every year. Dorsey was never the same after the Auburn chop block. He was way more important to that team than Delpit but they still managed to finish the season strong statistically if you account for the two triple overtime games.
Shame on us for not having Queen ready at the beginning of the season.
We had a record number of juniors return for their senior season (at least one at all levels of the defense), added a historically great freshman cornerback, and had a first round linebacker that we didn’t use properly until the end of the year. We finished outside of the top 30 in both scoring defense and total defense. That’s simply unacceptable.
I’ll give you that we were playing our best at the end of the year. That just doesn’t make up for what we saw most of the season.
Posted on 5/6/20 at 5:22 pm to Penrod
Well, the article did say:
quote:
To play man coverage, LSU’s Aranda will switch into a 4-2-5 look so no linebacker is conflicted between man-to-man and run responsibilities.
Posted on 5/6/20 at 5:24 pm to AlwysATgr
quote:
To play man coverage, LSU’s Aranda will switch into a 4-2-5 look so no linebacker is conflicted between man-to-man and run responsibilities.
sure but honestly, I don't know how often we played pure man.
The article says our preferred was Man on the outside 2 high safeties and everyone else in zone.
Posted on 5/6/20 at 5:36 pm to southdowns84
quote:
I think in a vacuum I'd prefer the 3-4, but at a place like LSU I lean more towards the 4-2-5 based on the type of athletes we recruit.
The numbers are different, but in the end the personnel is going to be relatively the same. LSU rarely played in a base 3-4 to begin with.
You have a big OLB that is like a DE. You have another that is your pass rusher who would usually also be a DE.
You have hybrid safeties like Jacoby Stevens that is like an extra LB in either alignment. So if you go to 4-2-5 you essentially have a 3rd LB regardless. If Chaisson or Arden Key are the 4th man on the line, does it really matter if his hand is down or he is standing up?
Key part of the article:
A college defense can get away with only have 1 pure edge rusher on the field for early downs. Most Tite front coordinators will bring in a 2nd or 3rd pass rusher when they can get the offense behind the sticks.
Posted on 5/6/20 at 5:46 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
The numbers are different, but in the end the personnel is going to be relatively the same. LSU rarely played in a base 3-4 to begin with.
I misspoke. I meant Aranda’s scheme vs Pelini. Aranda was much more read and react, which I don’t think properly takes advantage of our athletes. I think it’s much better employed at a place like Wisconsin or Baylor.
Posted on 5/6/20 at 6:02 pm to southdowns84
I think the read and react was partly due to our defensive line depth situation, which was very bad when Miles was fired, and only now is getting closer to what it was in the late Miles/Chavis era. I don’t think we will see a rotation of 10 DL like we had under Pelini the first time he was here, but the rotations in 2017 and 18 relied a lot on the starters.
After Ole Miss, I think you saw a D closer to what Aranda wanted. We have up only 270 yards per game after Ole Miss, would would have been good enough for top five in the nation. If we go from the game where I consider us to be the healthiest we were all season, the A&M game, then we only gave up 259 yards per game, games which include three top five teams.
After Ole Miss, I think you saw a D closer to what Aranda wanted. We have up only 270 yards per game after Ole Miss, would would have been good enough for top five in the nation. If we go from the game where I consider us to be the healthiest we were all season, the A&M game, then we only gave up 259 yards per game, games which include three top five teams.
Posted on 5/6/20 at 6:07 pm to SammyTiger
Was concerned about the Chiefs switching to a 4-3, 4-2-5, etc last year, but they eventually won the Super Bowl. But then they also brought in Tyrann, so who knows
Posted on 5/6/20 at 6:24 pm to Tiger Nation 84
quote:
4-2-5 nickel is the only way to play modern football.
Don't tell the Chargers that.
Posted on 5/6/20 at 6:34 pm to Tiger on the Rag
quote:
I like the 4-2-5. Fast atheletes we seem to be able to recruit well. The key to me is the 2 guys in the middle and that niclel back. Brooks is a guy that would fit that mold and there are plenty Brooks' out there. Having 2 linebackers that are big and fast also makes it work.
You run nickel regardless of what your base defense is when the offense has 3WRs.
quote:
I never did like the 3-4. Not enough pressure on qb and when you blitz you don't have much in the middle for draw or delayed handoffs.
This has nothing to do with the 3-4. In fact, the 3-4 is better equipped for pressuring and confusing the QB. Has everything to do with how Aranda called the plays. Every year, I kept waiting for the same style of confusing blitzes that he called at Wisconsin to be installed here and only saw it a few times.
That being said, I'm excited to see if Bo can bring back the magic of the ferocious, aggressive LSU defense!
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