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Message
Help With Lumber Spans
Posted on 11/18/24 at 8:46 pm
Posted on 11/18/24 at 8:46 pm
I'm self building my home and recently failed my framing inspection. The reason for the fail was the inspector said that my double 2x12 header for my tray ceiling wasn't sufficient. He noted in his remarks that the span was only good for 10' 9". Every span table I've looked at list a single 2x10 spf #2 with 20 live load and 10 dead load at over 18'. I've doubled the header and made it 2x12 which should make it more sturdy. Do any of you guys know what I'm missing? I've tried calling the inspector but couldn't reach him and the clerk only knows what was on the inspection sheet.
I'll try to attach pictures showing what I'm trying to describe when I get them.
I'll try to attach pictures showing what I'm trying to describe when I get them.
This post was edited on 11/18/24 at 9:17 pm
3
Posted on 11/18/24 at 8:57 pm to GAFF
typically when making a homemade beam you sandwich a layer of 3/4 plywood between the two boards then screw and glue. The plywood resists the sag pressure from the weight of the individual boards. I bet had you done that you’d have passed
Posted on 11/18/24 at 9:05 pm to GAFF
Do yourself a favor and find a structural engineer. Trays are a complex framing system which typically require pretty heavy LVLs
Posted on 11/18/24 at 9:07 pm to cgrand
quote:
I bet had you done that you’d have passed
Is my method not sufficient though? I ask because I'm now stuck in a predicament on how to correct the problem. If his claim of two 2x12's only spanning 10' 9" is accurate than a triple 2x12 still wouldn't achieve the appropriate span. Which makes me think he is wanting a LVL, which to me is crazy. If he does indeed want LVL's then that is going to require me to do a lot of work. I'm more so wanting to know what made the double 2x12's insufficient.
This post was edited on 11/18/24 at 9:18 pm
Posted on 11/18/24 at 9:15 pm to PolarPop5
quote:
Trays are a complex framing system which typically require pretty heavy LVLs
What makes them require heavy LVLs? That is a honest question because I'm really curious. The tray is only supporting the upper joist of the tray (maybe eight 2x10's). Two double 2x12's running parallel to each other spanning 16' should be able to support 20 psf.
Posted on 11/18/24 at 9:22 pm to GAFF
How far are your eight 2x10s spanning?
Posted on 11/18/24 at 9:31 pm to PolarPop5
quote:
How far are your eight 2x10s spanning?
Guessing here, but I'd say around 10'
Posted on 11/18/24 at 9:39 pm to GAFF
There’s some info missing.
Posted on 11/18/24 at 9:56 pm to PolarPop5
I'm not spanning a floor though. I'm spanning a ceiling. The code book even references the span ICC Site. Scroll down to the "CEILING JOIST SPANS FOR COMMON LUMBER SPECIES 20 PSF LIVE LOAD" section. It doesn't list 2x12's but 2x10's on 16" centers are listed at 19' 10".
I'm in Georgia and we go by the ICC/IRC and it states all ceiling joist are to be figured off 20 psf live load and 10 psf dead.
I'm in Georgia and we go by the ICC/IRC and it states all ceiling joist are to be figured off 20 psf live load and 10 psf dead.
Posted on 11/18/24 at 10:00 pm to Art Vandelay
quote:
There’s some info missing.
From me or the inspector?
All I did was run double 2x12's plate to plate (16'), then ran double 2x12's between first 2x12's (10'). Then I stubbed joist from 2x12's to plates for lower ceiling. Then I ran 2x10's on top of 2x12's for upper ceiling.
Inspector said my double 2x12's couldn't span more than 10' 9" if supporting a load. The only load it's supporting is the upper ceiling of the tray.
Posted on 11/18/24 at 10:36 pm to GAFF
quote:
All I did was run double 2x12's plate to plate (16'), then ran double 2x12's between first 2x12's (10'). Then I stubbed joist from 2x12's to plates for lower ceiling. Then I ran 2x10's on top of 2x12's for upper ceiling. Inspector said my double 2x12's couldn't span more than 10' 9" if supporting a load. The only load it's supporting is the upper ceiling of the tray.
I’m with you and it’s probably fine. But was this not in your plan? This should have been settled before you even start. This drives me crazy.
Posted on 11/18/24 at 10:45 pm to Art Vandelay
Only thing on the plan is a note indicating that the ceiling in the bedroom is a tray ceiling. There are lvl’s listed on the drawing but none for the tray.
Posted on 11/19/24 at 3:22 pm to GAFF
quote:
Every span table I've looked at list a single 2x10 spf #2 with 20 live load and 10 dead load at over 18'. I've doubled the header and made it 2x12 which should make it more sturdy. Do any of you guys know what I'm missing?
The header for your tray ceiling is different than the span of a ceiling joist. The ceiling joist is only carrying the weight of the ceiling/storage 8" in either direction. The header has more weight on it (joists and/or the other headers). So the header has to be bigger to handle the load.
No one here can give you a definitive answer without accurate dimensions. The safe bet would be to throw up a couple of LVLs. Not sure about where you are, but the lumber yards here would be able to size those for you.
Posted on 11/19/24 at 3:31 pm to GAFF
quote:
All I did was run double 2x12's plate to plate (16'), then ran double 2x12's between first 2x12's (10'). Then I stubbed joist from 2x12's to plates for lower ceiling. Then I ran 2x10's on top of 2x12's for upper ceiling.
This was probably allowable before the changes made in the 2015 IRC. However, all spans were reduced. You are definitely over loading the (2) 2x12.
quote:
Inspector said my double 2x12's couldn't span more than 10' 9" if supporting a load. The only load it's supporting is the upper ceiling of the tray.
No. Those four 2x12s support almost the entire ceiling for more than a 10' span of that room. The double 2x12 that connect the longer beams are carrying load which is being transferred to the longer beams.
Posted on 11/19/24 at 7:05 pm to notbilly
Finally got in touch with the inspector today. Completely my fault in that I did in fact have a roof bracing on top of one of the double 2x12's. I must have threw it up when I was doing all the final bracing and forgot.
As it pertains to this discussion though after talking with the inspector he said if not for that then the double 2x12's would have been fine
He stated I could either do quad 2x12's (which will be the easiest fix) or replace with LVL's.
As it pertains to this discussion though after talking with the inspector he said if not for that then the double 2x12's would have been fine
He stated I could either do quad 2x12's (which will be the easiest fix) or replace with LVL's.
Posted on 11/19/24 at 9:29 pm to cgrand
I agreed with cgrand. They wanted an lvl, most inspectors are used to seeing them these days from my experience. Can you get a 3rd party inspection and be there when they are performing the inspection to get more insight?
Worst case scenario go rent some screw jacks to support the ceiling and fly in new lvls if you need to cut them out. The sledge hammer will be your friend.
Worst case scenario go rent some screw jacks to support the ceiling and fly in new lvls if you need to cut them out. The sledge hammer will be your friend.
Posted on 11/21/24 at 3:01 pm to cgrand
quote:
typically when making a homemade beam you sandwich a layer of 3/4 plywood between the two boards then screw and glue. The plywood resists the sag pressure from the weight of the individual boards. I bet had you done that you’d have passed
Those are called flitch beams and you're right about it passing. Typically we would use 1/2" plywood so the overall width is 3.5" to match the 2x4 studs.
If he had boxed it with 2x4s top and bottom it should pass as well.
Back to the OP. Without redoing the framing your only course of action is to have a structural engineer write a stamped and signed letter stating the double 2x is sufficient for the applicable loads.
Posted on 11/22/24 at 6:13 pm to junkfunky
Ended up moving the ceiling brace to a wall and off of the double 2x12’s. Inspector passed it.
Posted on 11/22/24 at 7:56 pm to GAFF
Good deal. sounds like you knew what you were doing all along other than a mis-placed support. Nice job.
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