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Long Read from The Guardian on Steroid Use
Posted on 6/9/24 at 6:51 pm
Posted on 6/9/24 at 6:51 pm
Natty of Not? How Steroids Got Big
Years ago I started reading The Guardian to get a different perspective on these United States, and to get better international news. Unfortunately, like most media sources, the Guardian has become mostly useless due to it's obvious editorial agenda, although if you read it like it's a satirical newsource, ala The Onion or this Babylon Bee I hear about, it can be funny. Occasionally they still have good articles pertaining to fitness, this isn't really one of them. Unfortunately they never get out of the traditional rut of "Steroids bad, make men be manly, and manly men doing man-ish things is bad".
I was hoping somewhere in this long read they would touch on some more common contemporary applications of testosterone, since the entire focus of the article claims to be about how steroids used to be a niche interest amongst only the most dedicated bodybuilders, and now steroids are more commonly used by a much wider population of men and women, (I get the feeling that the author doesn't give a shite that there is a difference between androgenic anabolic steroids and testosterone replacement therapy, it's all the same and it's all bad because stupid men being stupid, or something)
I enjoyed reading it because it's so fricking stupid, the author clearly had an objective which was to make steroid usage sound like it's as bad as, or worse than injecting intravenous street drugs like black tar heroin. I like informing myself on how other people view topics that are relevant to my day to day life, especially what I would call an outsider's viewpoint. I wonder how Mike Israetel feels about his contributions to this article. I've never used anabolic steroids or TRT, but I most likely will at some point, and it's enlightening to see how for some people, I would just be a desperate junky in need of "harm reduction" services. frickin' weird.
Years ago I started reading The Guardian to get a different perspective on these United States, and to get better international news. Unfortunately, like most media sources, the Guardian has become mostly useless due to it's obvious editorial agenda, although if you read it like it's a satirical newsource, ala The Onion or this Babylon Bee I hear about, it can be funny. Occasionally they still have good articles pertaining to fitness, this isn't really one of them. Unfortunately they never get out of the traditional rut of "Steroids bad, make men be manly, and manly men doing man-ish things is bad".
I was hoping somewhere in this long read they would touch on some more common contemporary applications of testosterone, since the entire focus of the article claims to be about how steroids used to be a niche interest amongst only the most dedicated bodybuilders, and now steroids are more commonly used by a much wider population of men and women, (I get the feeling that the author doesn't give a shite that there is a difference between androgenic anabolic steroids and testosterone replacement therapy, it's all the same and it's all bad because stupid men being stupid, or something)
I enjoyed reading it because it's so fricking stupid, the author clearly had an objective which was to make steroid usage sound like it's as bad as, or worse than injecting intravenous street drugs like black tar heroin. I like informing myself on how other people view topics that are relevant to my day to day life, especially what I would call an outsider's viewpoint. I wonder how Mike Israetel feels about his contributions to this article. I've never used anabolic steroids or TRT, but I most likely will at some point, and it's enlightening to see how for some people, I would just be a desperate junky in need of "harm reduction" services. frickin' weird.
Posted on 6/9/24 at 7:26 pm to DrDenim
Protein ManiaBonus Dumbass Article for those who follow that link: You can ready a very heavy handed guilt trip about how your rich, first world country, white guy arse is focusing too much on eating too much protein. I don't recommend it, but again....it's good for laughs if you can read it in that way. I love having a pasty Londoner click their tongue at me about how I'm a horrible human who's destroying the planet because I'm not a fricking vegan.
Posted on 6/10/24 at 8:12 am to DrDenim
people cope with their own insecurities over their own lack of work in many ways. just another example of this
Posted on 6/10/24 at 8:30 am to lsu777
What bothers me about this is that frequently all aspects of masculinity are portrayed as negative societal components, so the beneficial aspects are lumped in with those that are truly “toxic”. This creates less space for the voices of positive masculinity, and the void is filled up by grifters that demonstrate the highest levels of toxicity.
Posted on 6/10/24 at 8:45 am to HVAU
quote:
What bothers me about this is that frequently all aspects of masculinity are portrayed as negative societal components, so the beneficial aspects are lumped in with those that are truly “toxic”. This creates less space for the voices of positive masculinity, and the void is filled up by grifters that demonstrate the highest levels of toxicity.
100% but seems to be getting better
Posted on 6/10/24 at 9:16 am to DrDenim
I thought the steroids article was largely truthful and very fair. The writer didn't pick on only on bodybuilders and their horror stories which is easy to do, had very little focus on roid rage and other sensationalized aspect of PED use, mentioned how social media influencers are likely using without being open their use, and highlighted how much PEDs are used by a lot of people, including Hollywood actors and supposedly drug tested athletes. All of that stuff I read about on this board.
While it was a little dramatic, and yes, could have talked more about low test as a medical issue, I thought it was a pretty honest article.
While it was a little dramatic, and yes, could have talked more about low test as a medical issue, I thought it was a pretty honest article.
Posted on 6/10/24 at 9:39 am to NOLALGD
i didnt read article but
all of that is true
quote:
I thought the steroids article was largely truthful and very fair. The writer didn't pick on only on bodybuilders and their horror stories which is easy to do, had very little focus on roid rage and other sensationalized aspect of PED use, mentioned how social media influencers are likely using without being open their use, and highlighted how much PEDs are used by a lot of people, including Hollywood actors and supposedly drug tested athletes. All of that stuff I read about on this board.
all of that is true
Posted on 6/10/24 at 9:45 am to DrDenim
I scanned the article and thought it was ok. The Germans figured out therapeutic steroid use was completely safe in the late 30's early 40's yet we still have people asking if it is 'safe' 
Steroids are no different than anything else - if you knock back a fifth of vodka or bourbon a day you are going to suffer repercussions. If you drink one drink a day its fine.
I've posted this before but I blame the medical community for some of this nonsense your average doctor doesn't know diddly shite about steroids or performance enhancing drugs other than they are 'bad'
To them there is no difference in 100 mg's a week or 1000 mg's a week.
Steroids are no different than anything else - if you knock back a fifth of vodka or bourbon a day you are going to suffer repercussions. If you drink one drink a day its fine.
I've posted this before but I blame the medical community for some of this nonsense your average doctor doesn't know diddly shite about steroids or performance enhancing drugs other than they are 'bad'
To them there is no difference in 100 mg's a week or 1000 mg's a week. Posted on 6/10/24 at 7:54 pm to ronricks
That article is better than what I used to read, but it still pisses me off because there's too much emphasis on the young and dumb and the shite they do with steroids. Then they started talking about needle exchanges and harm reduction services for steroid users and I'm choking on my coffee I'm laughing so hard. Is it necessary? For some? Sure, like you said, there's always those that take it too far and it makes sense for them I guess.
I can say this as a critical care nurse, health care workers, or the Medical Community, are definitely responsible for a lot of bad messaging about steroids, weight lifting, strength training, really any proactive health behavior. Not all, just most. We have a very stilted point of view, and if I didn't have the background I do, I would probably have the same dumbass opinions 99% of my coworkers do. If I built my views on steroids based off what I've seen at work, I only have 1 story.
Right after nursing school I was still living in Moore, OK and working out at this big gym called FLEX. It was a big meat market type of gym with twice as many tanning beds as squat racks, full of meatheads of all types. Good place. There was this guy that to me looked Vietnamese, shorter than me, so probably 5'5" about, and he was jacked as frick and ripped, and he obviously wasn't "in season" but to me he was very impressive, probably close to 200lbs at that height. He had this tall redheaded Amazon that trained with him and she had the huge bolt-ons and a jaw like Bruce Campbell, so I think it was safe to say they were both on gear. She followed him around like a puppy. I was jealous.
About a year after I graduated from nursing school, I'm at work, and I get report on one of my patients and it's a 35 year old guy, bodybuilder, he's got late stage heart failure, he hasn't been taking his Coreg, and he's basically out of options. It's heart transplant or death....at 35. I go in the room to say Hi to him at about the same time the cardiologist comes in his room. I immediately recognize him and I can tell he recognizes me, so it's fricking awkward, and then I listen to the cardiologist give him his death sentence. Obviously the doctor knew the guy and had been treating him for a while because he kinda chewed the guys arse a bit for not taking his meds and not quitting the steroids. He apologized again and said there's nothing else that can be done.
Based off that alone I'd say steroids will kill your arse, just like they told me in D.A.R.E.
But that's the problem with healthcare people, we only see the people who get fricked up enough to get admitted to the hospital, it's misleading if you don't remind yourself of that fact, and remember that there are thousands and thousands of people using steroids that never frick themselves up like that. That dude obviously over did it. I have no idea what happened to him. I hope he got a heart, but his situation can't be common, or I'd have seen in again in 20 years. I've seen 1 steroid using bodybuilder in the ICU in 20 years.
I can say this as a critical care nurse, health care workers, or the Medical Community, are definitely responsible for a lot of bad messaging about steroids, weight lifting, strength training, really any proactive health behavior. Not all, just most. We have a very stilted point of view, and if I didn't have the background I do, I would probably have the same dumbass opinions 99% of my coworkers do. If I built my views on steroids based off what I've seen at work, I only have 1 story.
Right after nursing school I was still living in Moore, OK and working out at this big gym called FLEX. It was a big meat market type of gym with twice as many tanning beds as squat racks, full of meatheads of all types. Good place. There was this guy that to me looked Vietnamese, shorter than me, so probably 5'5" about, and he was jacked as frick and ripped, and he obviously wasn't "in season" but to me he was very impressive, probably close to 200lbs at that height. He had this tall redheaded Amazon that trained with him and she had the huge bolt-ons and a jaw like Bruce Campbell, so I think it was safe to say they were both on gear. She followed him around like a puppy. I was jealous.
About a year after I graduated from nursing school, I'm at work, and I get report on one of my patients and it's a 35 year old guy, bodybuilder, he's got late stage heart failure, he hasn't been taking his Coreg, and he's basically out of options. It's heart transplant or death....at 35. I go in the room to say Hi to him at about the same time the cardiologist comes in his room. I immediately recognize him and I can tell he recognizes me, so it's fricking awkward, and then I listen to the cardiologist give him his death sentence. Obviously the doctor knew the guy and had been treating him for a while because he kinda chewed the guys arse a bit for not taking his meds and not quitting the steroids. He apologized again and said there's nothing else that can be done.
Based off that alone I'd say steroids will kill your arse, just like they told me in D.A.R.E.
But that's the problem with healthcare people, we only see the people who get fricked up enough to get admitted to the hospital, it's misleading if you don't remind yourself of that fact, and remember that there are thousands and thousands of people using steroids that never frick themselves up like that. That dude obviously over did it. I have no idea what happened to him. I hope he got a heart, but his situation can't be common, or I'd have seen in again in 20 years. I've seen 1 steroid using bodybuilder in the ICU in 20 years.
Posted on 6/12/24 at 8:25 pm to ronricks
quote:
I blame the medical community for some of this nonsense your average doctor doesn't know diddly shite about steroids or performance enhancing drugs other than they are 'bad' To them there is no difference in 100 mg's a week or 1000 mg's a week.
Part of the problem here is really bad legislation that made it extremely difficult to do research with these substances. That led to underground use, little in the literature etc, and presto chango you have ignorance, folklore, myth, etc. All of these barriers need to be removed.
Over on the MSB sometimes they talk about LeBron and how he's been playing for so long at such a high level. There is speculation that he's on a broad cocktail of substances - we should know what he's doing and all of it should be legalized or in some way taken out of the shadows so it can be investigated. If we can extend the peak performance of people, there is a moral obligation to look into it, at least. A welder should have a longer career, a doctor, etc. The boost in production for our society could be rather significant. They say LeBron spends $1M / yr on such things (that includes everything from psych to massage to Rx and more), which is a bargain for him and his salary level in order to keep making that annual pay. But, if this was not in the shadows the costs may be acceptable for the general public.
What I find funny and irritating at the same time is that you'll find a lot of negativity about AAS and TRT and talk about safety, but when people want to contemplate using AAS (as they've done in the literature and in some circles like some UN efforts to look into birth control type issues), like a TE injection for example, for male contraception - all of a sudden we don't see the worry. For men on TRT, 100mg / wk would be pretty common. For contraceptive purposes, 250mg/wk can be seen and very often it comes with few or no reports of side effects that compel people to stop taking it. The problem of course is that it does not completely shut down the HPG axis and some swimmers still emerge and pregnancy is thus still possible. Male contraception has been elusive as a result.
quote:
completely safe in the late 30's early 40's yet we still have people asking if it is 'safe'
Not only that, but some large epidemiological work looked at those old Eastern Bloc athletes and decades later they are as healthy or more healthy than their peer age groups. The one blip seemed to be an increase in depression iirc, which is what you might expect for people that go from about age 5 to 20 or 25 or so, totally dedicated to one thing and end up at the top of the world in a given sport, and they have to then move on to something else.
Then you had some really bad research about 70 years ago where they bathed prostate cells in a medium that was extremely rich in DHT (derivative of T) and found a carcinogenic effect so you had the scare that T was causing prostate cancer. This disease is vexing as this effect is clearly not there yet one of the biggest ways they slow it once it starts is to shut down T. This myth was debunked quite some time ago but it wasn't that long ago I encountered a Physician's Asst that said this and I asked why and she just said, 'this is what I was taught' during her rotations with doctors, and this is because doctors don't have time to catch up with the literature. They simply work too much. Some studies have indicated it takes 11, 12, maybe up to 17 years for the research findings to actually make it into day to day patient care. That is simply not acceptable, but that is a topic for another discussion.
I asked that PA to think about the claim of T causing prostate cancer and asked her why we don't see catastrophic rates of prostate cancer in football players, Olympic athletes, strongman competitors, bodybuilders etc. Her facial expression was like the little spinning rainbow wheel when a computer program freezes.
T research has been poorly done and poorly managed in our nation. Then we have the Women's Health Initiative...more damage done but to women and the issue of HRT. But that's another topic.
Posted on 6/12/24 at 10:39 pm to DrDenim
Consider the source of the article.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 6:15 am to DrDenim
I’m not reading all that. Legalize it so I can start blasting.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 7:54 am to POTUS2024
quote:
Part of the problem here is really bad legislation that made it extremely difficult to do research with these substances. That led to underground use, little in the literature etc, and presto chango you have ignorance, folklore, myth, etc. All of these barriers need to be removed.
Over on the MSB sometimes they talk about LeBron and how he's been playing for so long at such a high level. There is speculation that he's on a broad cocktail of substances - we should know what he's doing and all of it should be legalized or in some way taken out of the shadows so it can be investigated. If we can extend the peak performance of people, there is a moral obligation to look into it, at least. A welder should have a longer career, a doctor, etc. The boost in production for our society could be rather significant. They say LeBron spends $1M / yr on such things (that includes everything from psych to massage to Rx and more), which is a bargain for him and his salary level in order to keep making that annual pay. But, if this was not in the shadows the costs may be acceptable for the general public.
What I find funny and irritating at the same time is that you'll find a lot of negativity about AAS and TRT and talk about safety, but when people want to contemplate using AAS (as they've done in the literature and in some circles like some UN efforts to look into birth control type issues), like a TE injection for example, for male contraception - all of a sudden we don't see the worry. For men on TRT, 100mg / wk would be pretty common. For contraceptive purposes, 250mg/wk can be seen and very often it comes with few or no reports of side effects that compel people to stop taking it. The problem of course is that it does not completely shut down the HPG axis and some swimmers still emerge and pregnancy is thus still possible. Male contraception has been elusive as a result.
quote:
Not only that, but some large epidemiological work looked at those old Eastern Bloc athletes and decades later they are as healthy or more healthy than their peer age groups. The one blip seemed to be an increase in depression iirc, which is what you might expect for people that go from about age 5 to 20 or 25 or so, totally dedicated to one thing and end up at the top of the world in a given sport, and they have to then move on to something else.
Then you had some really bad research about 70 years ago where they bathed prostate cells in a medium that was extremely rich in DHT (derivative of T) and found a carcinogenic effect so you had the scare that T was causing prostate cancer. This disease is vexing as this effect is clearly not there yet one of the biggest ways they slow it once it starts is to shut down T. This myth was debunked quite some time ago but it wasn't that long ago I encountered a Physician's Asst that said this and I asked why and she just said, 'this is what I was taught' during her rotations with doctors, and this is because doctors don't have time to catch up with the literature. They simply work too much. Some studies have indicated it takes 11, 12, maybe up to 17 years for the research findings to actually make it into day to day patient care. That is simply not acceptable, but that is a topic for another discussion.
I asked that PA to think about the claim of T causing prostate cancer and asked her why we don't see catastrophic rates of prostate cancer in football players, Olympic athletes, strongman competitors, bodybuilders etc. Her facial expression was like the little spinning rainbow wheel when a computer program freezes.
T research has been poorly done and poorly managed in our nation. Then we have the Women's Health Initiative...more damage done but to women and the issue of HRT. But that's another topic.
really well written bro
Posted on 6/13/24 at 7:54 am to DeafJam73
quote:
I’m not reading all that. Legalize it so I can start blasting.
already is
once you get the script and have been on a while, you only take a blood test once a year....do as you please otherwise
Posted on 6/13/24 at 8:52 am to POTUS2024
quote:
Her facial expression was like the little spinning rainbow wheel when a computer program freezes.
What soured me on the medical profession is I went to 5 or 6 different doctors (that were recommended to me) when I came off long term steroid use and asked them to help me do this legally via prescription and under their care to monitor etc and all of them told me flat out 'no' they would not. One doctor without even looking at my blood work (which I had with me) told me he estimated I had 5 years left to live before I died of liver failure or got a cancerous tumor etc.
One told me he wouldn't help me since I abused illegal drugs.
One told me he wouldn't help me for 'ethical' reasons whatever that meant.
The most understanding one of all happened to be a female but she just didn't know enough to treat me and told me such. These people were just stupid. I gave them a sheet with everything I had been on the dosages and current blood work. They looked at me like I had two heads and all of them said some form of "you are likely not going to live very long!!!!" etc.
When I tried to explain to them that a lot of things can be reversed etc. they told me they didn't believe that and that the damage was done etc. They simply would not listen but I guarantee you had I gone in there and told them I had been drinking a bottle of Jack Daniels every other day they would have helped me. That's how backwards this was and it isn't like this was 25 years ago this was Feb of 2015. I'm hoping in that time these same doctors have woken up and are willing to help someone who wants to do it legally and under medical supervision. The mere mention of the word 'steroid' would contort their face like I was calling their mother a whore
Posted on 6/13/24 at 9:05 am to ronricks
quote:
What soured me on the medical profession is I went to 5 or 6 different doctors (that were recommended to me) when I came off long term steroid use and asked them to help me do this legally via prescription and under their care to monitor etc and all of them told me flat out 'no' they would not. One doctor without even looking at my blood work (which I had with me) told me he estimated I had 5 years left to live before I died of liver failure or got a cancerous tumor etc.
One told me he wouldn't help me since I abused illegal drugs.
One told me he wouldn't help me for 'ethical' reasons whatever that meant.
The most understanding one of all happened to be a female but she just didn't know enough to treat me and told me such. These people were just stupid. I gave them a sheet with everything I had been on the dosages and current blood work. They looked at me like I had two heads and all of them said some form of "you are likely not going to live very long!!!!" etc.
When I tried to explain to them that a lot of things can be reversed etc. they told me they didn't believe that and that the damage was done etc. They simply would not listen but I guarantee you had I gone in there and told them I had been drinking a bottle of Jack Daniels every other day they would have helped me. That's how backwards this was and it isn't like this was 25 years ago this was Feb of 2015. I'm hoping in that time these same doctors have woken up and are willing to help someone who wants to do it legally and under medical supervision. The mere mention of the word 'steroid' would contort their face like I was calling their mother a whore
had a similar situation but a little different and i have posted about it on here before
i was really interested in steroids and biochem etc when younger but never took them. in 2015 i got referred to endo here locally when we were having problems getting pregnant with our 3rd
took bloodwork and saw test was in the 200s and immediately wanted to start me on testosterone to help bring that number up and would in his words...increase sperm quantity and quality....i just sat there dumbfounded and then he said, we are going to put you on a once a month shot of test cyp.....i couldnt handle it anymore and started busting out laughing
i went to the white board in the office and started drawing out the half life graph of test c and started talking to him about how taking exogenous hormones shuts down natural production and would do exactly the opposite as he described for sperm count & quality....he kind of looked at me the same way as you described...face got all contorted and he said....obviously you know more about this than me and admitted he isnt an expert on this and handled more female hormone issues and he referred me to Baylor.
i ended up researching who the best doctors where for this and turned out Dr Khera and his team were considered top 5 in the world and where at Baylor so i just requested him......when he reviewed the file and went over things with me.....he said....please do me a favor, never go to that endo again...he is a dumbass. I found it funny AF
he was the first doctor I could discuss things with that knew more than me on the subject which was awesome. My wife even knew after going to multiple doctors on it and immediately said that is who I was going to from now on, simply because she knew how good he was.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 11:44 am to lsu777
quote:
once you get the script and have been on a while, you only take a blood test once a year....do as you please otherwise
Once I know that it’s a fact I’m done making babies, I plan to explore it.
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