- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Coaching Changes
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
re: Are MMO's dying?
Posted on 8/2/18 at 1:51 pm to Freauxzen
Posted on 8/2/18 at 1:51 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Monopolies always kill innovation. That's why people don't like them.
Innovation challenges monopolies. Look at Uber and Lyft
quote:
EQ wasn't created to be addictive, WoW was. That's why so many of the game mechanics are terrible, And that reflected throughout the genre and further development. Did they design it well towards their goals? Sure. They were extremely successful. But being successful meant they sucked the air out of the room.
EQ was absolutely created to be addictive
All MMORPGs are created to keep you chasing the carrot on a stick so that you're still paying that $15 every month.
F2P games work the same way only they find ways to funnel you into the cash shop.
Many WoW developers played EverQuest. That's why WoW has always had such a strong endgame raiding scene. WoW just made it easier for everyone to get there.
quote:
They HAD to. There was no choice once people and groups of people were cemented in WoW. It's the trap of the genre itself - Dedication vs. Time and how that plays out for the player and the studio.
I disagree with this. It's certainly easier to slap a big IP on World of Warcraft and call it a day, but that proved to be a failing strategy. The only games that are even semi-relevant in MMO space are the games that are at least somewhat different than WoW.
EVE Online is probably the best example. This game actually pre-dates WoW but knew what it wanted to be, and the developers didn't try to dumb it down to chase the WoW playerbase.
ESO and FFXIV are other pretty successful MMOs that don't entirely follow the WoW model.
quote:
They weren't directly chasing Blizzard money (everyone wants blizzard's money), and I don't think anyone had realistic expectations of that. But ALL of their efforts were focused on figuring out how to be revenue positive and successful when 1) MMO's required significant investment, and more ongoing resources and development than most other games 2) One game took 90% of the market, therefore 90% of the revenue.
WoW took from the established MMORPG market but it introduced MMORPGs to so many more people that the potential playerbase was much larger than ever before.
The problem though is that the number of games, the majority of which were very similar to each other, stretched the playerbase too thin.
It would've been better to make a smaller scale game that targets a much more specific playerbase.
1
Posted on 8/2/18 at 1:54 pm to BulldogXero
quote:
EQ was absolutely created to be addictive
No it was the next step from MUDS, and the step was HUGE and it hooked people. Of course they wanted to make money, but the leap in MMO gaming was probably this biggest until VR MMOs make it to market.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 1:56 pm to DoUrden
quote:
No it was the next step from MUDS, and the step was HUGE and it hooked people. Of course they wanted to make money, but the leap in MMO gaming was probably this biggest until VR MMOs make it to market.
Yes; I am aware that the idea from EQ sprang from MUDS but that doesn't change the fact that the game was designed to keep you logged in day after day so they could continue to collect that subscription fee.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 2:21 pm to BulldogXero
quote:
Yes; I am aware that the idea from EQ sprang from MUDS but that doesn't change the fact that the game was designed to keep you logged in day after day so they could continue to collect that subscription fee.
Not as precisely as WoW.
EQ wanted to created a world to explore, that's why for the first 35 levels you don't really care about what armor to get, you spend hours running from Sand Giants just for the heck of it, or you just run from one end to the other. Or wait by a Cave and LFG not knowing what was really inside.
In WoW, you were loaded up with 10 quests out of the gate. You had to specific armor by level 20. There was never time to roam around. And later on you couldn't even join a group if you didn't have x, y, and z. Miserable stuff.
Yes, EQ turned into that as well with later updates, but that was a WoW development.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 2:29 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
you spend hours running from Sand Giants just for the heck of it,
Fansy!!!
Posted on 8/2/18 at 2:29 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Not as precisely as WoW. EQ wanted to created a world to explore, that's why for the first 35 levels you don't really care about what armor to get, you spend hours running from Sand Giants just for the heck of it, or you just run from one end to the other. Or wait by a Cave and LFG not knowing what was really inside.
I feel like this has more to do with MMORPGs (and online communication in general) being so novel at the time.
I would agree though that the slower pace of the game helped EQ feel more like a world and not a treadmill, but at the end of the day WoW simply traded grinding the same mobs in the corner of a room with grinding quests spread out across various areas of the map.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 2:31 pm to BulldogXero
quote:
WoW simply traded grinding the same mobs in the corner of a room SOLO!
Like I said the common denominator spoke, but the people that paid for games like EQ, SWG, or UO made WoW possible.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 2:48 pm to DoUrden
quote:
Like I said the common denominator spoke, but the people that paid for games like EQ, SWG, or UO made WoW possible.
Yeah, I don't like the increased focus on solo questing either. That's the main reason I don't know if I would have made it to the level cap in pre-cata WoW.
I think though that you have to have something these days that players can accomplish by themselves to where they don't feel like they're locked out of progressing because there's no similarly leveled players around for them to group with.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 2:50 pm to BulldogXero
quote:
Yeah, I don't like the increased focus on solo questing either. That's the main reason I don't know if I would have made it to the level cap in pre-cata WoW.
Nope.
Forgot what expansion brought garrisons but that was lame.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 2:51 pm to BulldogXero
quote:
I think though that you have to have something these days that players can accomplish by themselves to where they don't feel like they're locked out of progressing because there's no similarly leveled players around for them to group with.
Let's be honest, we've all played EQ and sat around for a couple of hours on lists lfg, hoping the spot opens up in a timely manner, only for the group to dissolve once you get there, or by the time you get an invite it's time to log off.
Having solo content is nice, or having classes that can solo is nice. There's just too much solo content in MMO's now.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 3:45 pm to SBvital
quote:It's not. He's somehow trying to pin MMO devs lack of creativity and originality on WoW. Just because other MMOs died trying to be WoW clones doesn't mean WoW is at fault. Obviously if someone wants the WoW experience in an MMO, they're going to only play WoW. MMOs that have broken from that mold have found success (FFXIV, ESO, SWTOR, etc.).
You make some really good points, I guess I just don't see how it's WoW, arguably the most successful MMO, fault the genre died.
This post was edited on 8/2/18 at 4:00 pm
Posted on 8/2/18 at 3:49 pm to Drewbie
I think it's the influx of the instant gratification generation (I'm old) not right or wrong, but D&D and MUD players were not mainstream, the original MMOs appealed to enough to get others drawn in and in the news, the Blizz took that and ran with it for the "I want it now" generation. As I said the numbers don't lie, they just stiffed the original crowd that started it.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 3:57 pm to Drewbie
quote:
It's not. He's somehow trying to pin MMO devs lack of creativity and originality on WoW. Just because other MMOs died trying to be WoW clones doesn't mean WoW is at fault.
That's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying the realities of the MMO market - the way players are engaged, the resource load of studios, how MMO's are built, how they are played etc. - were heavily affected by WoW and the design choices that became necessary to combat against it.
There are dozens of MMO's more creative and better than WoW, but they didn't survive. And nearly ALL of them in the Mid 2000s and early 2010s had the exact same outcome - freemium/free to play for a few years then death. When a large chunk of the market, regardless of game quality, depth, IP license, popularity prior to WoW - end the same, taking the only way out that seemed feasible, and there is one thing that is consistent across the board, then most likely that thing is what killed them.
You're also reading it wrong. It's not that WoW forced companies to be less creative, but they created an environment that stifled creativity and risk taking. It's the same thing that can happen to any artform. Look at the modern blockbuster and what people complain about that as. Studios are too focused on making comic book movies and are avoiding smaller, more insightful dramas and comedies. It's the same thing. Everyone has been looking to remake Lord of the Rings since the early part of the Century.
With movies, the market is big enough and the engagement is different to still support a wide array of choices. The MMO market was too niche to withstand such a situation.
The fact that we have this thread is proof enough that the MMO market is dying, AND it started collapsing with the Free to Play movement in 2009-ish, which was in retaliation to WoW. And WoW did that with bad, hamster wheel design choices.
This post was edited on 8/2/18 at 4:00 pm
Posted on 8/2/18 at 4:05 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
It's not that WoW forced companies to be less creative, but they created an environment that stifled creativity and risk taking.
Regardless, I wholeheartedly disagree. The F2P movement happened because people realized that F2P MMOs with microtransactions were an easy way to make a quick buck. I played my fair share of them growing up because I thought the idea of paying monthly to play a game was absurd. I saw many development teams piece together an MMO with a cash shop, run it for a few years, then dip once the money was made. That has nothing to do with WoW "forcing" an inherent model on the market. In fact, WoW even had to change to combat the success of this model by implementing the ability to purchase sub time with in-game currency making it possible to play WoW for free. Your point is countered even more with the success of modern MMOs being those that drastically pull away from the WoW mold like Black Desert, ESO, and FFXIV. I fail to see how WoW forced any other studio into a certain mindset or formula considering there have been many different kinds of MMO gain traction since its inception.
This post was edited on 8/2/18 at 4:12 pm
Posted on 8/2/18 at 4:13 pm to Drewbie
quote:
MMOs that have broken from that mold have found success (FFXIV, ESO, SWTOR, etc.).
I'm mostly talking about the 2000s and early 2010s when WoW was an absolute monster.
WoW is certainly less popular than it was, the market is more dry, and technology has improved. But none of those games are particularly good and if they had existed at WoW's peak, they'd be dead as well.
Successful things can be bad for the market they serve, it can happen often. Look at Guitar Hero for one. Massively successful that focused on the wrong things, constrained the market, and killed it off. No innovation occurred, no change, no lasting impression, no lasting market.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 4:16 pm to Drewbie
quote:quote:
It's not that WoW forced companies to be less creative, but they created an environment that stifled creativity and risk taking.
Regardless, I wholeheartedly disagree.
You can't spend the investment required for the MMO on something that is more risky, which means usually more innovative. This is a very common problem in media, again, see blockbusters.So you build towards the successful thing. You are almost required to build something similar.
LOTRO started off far away from WoW and just got closer and closer over time to try and combat them. Great property, innovative combat and mechanics, no raiding, no gating - all wrapped up with a high level of polish and it still couldn't be relatively successful in that market.
Like I said - the realities of the market itself were part of the problem.
quote:
I played my fair share of them growing up because I thought the idea of paying monthly to play a game was absurd. I saw many development teams piece together an MMO with a cash shop, run it for a few years, then dip once the money was made. That has nothing to do with WoW "forcing" an inherent model on the market. In fact, WoW even had to change to combat the success of this model by implementing the ability to purchase sub time with in-game currency making it possible to play WoW for free.
Which was caused by people wanting to play multiple MMOs, but only paying for one, ie. WoW. I hated WoW, but it's what many of my friends played, so I reluctantly played it for a year....all the while trying to find time to play CoH, GW and LOTRO - all superior games that ended up making poor design choices because people wouldn't pay for two MMOs.
This was the reality at the time.
quote:
Your point is countered even more with the success of modern MMOs being those that drastically pull away from the WoW mold like Black Desert, ESO, and FFXIV. I fail to see how WoW forced any other studio into a certain mindset or formula considering there have been many different kinds of MMO gain traction since its inception.
See below, I'm mainly talking about what killed the market as a major player, which was the 2008-2011 period or so when everything was dying off left and right.
WoW has faded in popularity, and with that allowed modern MMOs to actually survive. If any of those would have come around in 2007 or 08, they'd be dead too.
This post was edited on 8/2/18 at 4:22 pm
Posted on 8/2/18 at 4:23 pm to Drewbie
quote:
I thought the idea of paying monthly to play a game was absurd
I paid for three EQ subs a month when I played, and didn't give it a 2nd thought. I did play WoW for a long time after the EQ declined. I miss the community, challenge, and time it took to learn and progess in EQ, I do not miss anything about WoW, as I said I think it's a generation thing.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 4:30 pm to Freauxzen
quote:It tanked during WoD because WoD was a dumpster fire which is why the entire expansion was cut short, but sub count estimates for Legion (regarded as one of the better expansions to date) were rivaling numbers from MoP at about 7-8 million. That's an increase of about 3 million subs since the last officially released numbers during WoD. Obviously they don't release the numbers publicly anymore so it's not proven, but people have done formulaic math based on server traffic and numbers of max level characters and Blizzard released a statement saying that sub numbers were hitting points during the early parts of Legion that they hadn't hit since Cataclysm. That would be a dramatic increase from WoD.
WoW has faded in popularity
Posted on 8/2/18 at 4:33 pm to Drewbie
quote:
hat's an increase of about 3 million subs since the last officially released numbers during WoD.
How long did those last, a ton of people come back for a month or two and quit again. Fewer will do so with each expansion, they are still printing money, but they are not on the upswing.
This post was edited on 8/2/18 at 4:35 pm
Posted on 8/2/18 at 4:36 pm to DoUrden
quote:I think that's false. It took an absolute trashcan of an expansion to cause the numbers to fall to 5 million subs. Legion was, once again, regarded as one of the better expansions to date. It would stand to reason that declining even further from WoD's disastrous numbers with an objectively better expansion wouldn't make much logical sense.
but they are not on the upswing.
Page 6 of 13
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News