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re: Are MMO's dying?
Posted on 8/2/18 at 11:48 am to Mystery
Posted on 8/2/18 at 11:48 am to Mystery
quote:
I haven't played WoW ever but I agree. Dungeon finders may be the worst culprit. That and making 80% of a game soloable.
Everyone blames dungeon finders, but I wouldn't have been able to stomach pre-Cata leveling in WoW if not for the implementation of the dungeon finder.
WoW is now one of the few games in the genre where you can go from level 1 to max level doing nothing but running dungeons in a group with other players. It's the closest we'll get to modern day group camp spots like in EQ.
Yes the dungeons are faceroll easy and people rarely chat but I blame the fast-paced (relatively speaking) combat system and the need to always be on the move rather than sticking to a specific spot in the zone for the lack of players being social with one another. Combat in a game like EQ or DAoC was arguably even more simplistic than WoW, so it has nothing really to do with difficulty level.
This post was edited on 8/2/18 at 11:49 am
2
Posted on 8/2/18 at 11:51 am to BulldogXero
quote:
It's the closest we'll get to modern day group camp spots like in EQ.
Not quite the same, I would spend hours pulling, drinking, and talking to my group outside of Karnor's Castle and we would be luck if more than one person dinged that night, but it was a blast!
quote:
Combat in a game like EQ or DAoC was arguably even more simplistic than WoW
LOL NO! 72 man raids no voice communication, healing rots, and try being an enchanter in the Hedge Event.
This post was edited on 8/2/18 at 11:55 am
Posted on 8/2/18 at 11:54 am to BulldogXero
quote:
hat said, Blizzard took what people liked about old school MMOs and made them more accessible to a wider audience.
They didn't force SOE, Mythic, Turbine, etc to create new MMOs that cloned WoW or change their existing games to be more like WoW. These companies did that because they were chasing the amount of money Blizzard was making, but these games either weren't as good as WoW or simply didn't do enough to differentiate themselves from WoW to make them viable long term.
He understands that. His argument isn't about profit or what the casual gamer likes. What he liked about MMOs was killed by WoWs theme park, insta group game.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 11:59 am to Mystery
Also a product of the times is information is just so easily had about every single thing in a game now. No need to ask anybody how to do anything in game when a google search will give you every answer. Sure you could find information in the old days but it was never so easy and fast.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 12:00 pm to Mystery
quote:
He understands that. His argument isn't about profit or what the casual gamer likes. What he liked about MMOs was killed by WoWs theme park, insta group game.
But WoW didn't kill the innovation in the genre
The other developers did who focused on making clones or changing their existing games to the point of where they are no longer recognizable.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 12:01 pm to Mystery
Class sites were another by product of the community, Rangers Glade took a lot of my free time at work. People would would together to solve quests, crafting, or encounters sharing knowledge.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 12:09 pm to Mystery
quote:
Nothing will ever be like EQ, SWG
pre-nge swg was the best of all time.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 12:09 pm to DoUrden
I remember playing my cleric when Epic's came out in EQ. Everyone getting together to talk about who they had given their items to (and lost it) and trying to work together to figure out the quests was freaking awesome...it took so long for some of those to get completed.
anyway... Here's a video of a streamer playing with the devs in Pantheon. It's pre-alpha video from back in April, but you can see that it already looks pretty good. I'm super excited about it and have been following the progress for nearly 18 months.
anyway... Here's a video of a streamer playing with the devs in Pantheon. It's pre-alpha video from back in April, but you can see that it already looks pretty good. I'm super excited about it and have been following the progress for nearly 18 months.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 12:17 pm to BulldogXero
quote:
But WoW didn't kill the innovation in the genre
The other developers did who focused on making clones or changing their existing games to the point of where they are no longer recognizable.
What are you talking about? This is exactly what he is saying. The success of WoW made everyone try to replicate.
Are you just wanting him to call other studios dumb?
Posted on 8/2/18 at 12:19 pm to SailorGator
quote:
pre-nge swg was the best of all time.
Pre-CU was the most fun I have had in an MMO. The community was great. That game was a mess when it came to most things, you could macro yourself through almost anything, including PVP. But it was my favorite.
CU and NGE was a direct result of SOE needing to do something to keep up with WoW. It was a mistake, it killed the game more. But I see why it happened.
This post was edited on 8/2/18 at 12:22 pm
Posted on 8/2/18 at 12:20 pm to BulldogXero
quote:
But WoW didn't kill the innovation in the genre
Monopolies always kill innovation. That's why people don't like them.
EQ wasn't created to be addictive, WoW was. That's why so many of the game mechanics are terrible, And that reflected throughout the genre and further development. Did they design it well towards their goals? Sure. They were extremely successful. But being successful meant they sucked the air out of the room.
quote:
The other developers did who focused on making clones or changing their existing games to the point of where they are no longer recognizable.
They HAD to. There was no choice once people and groups of people were cemented in WoW. It's the trap of the genre itself - Dedication vs. Time and how that plays out for the player and the studio.
quote:
They didn't force SOE, Mythic, Turbine, etc to create new MMOs that cloned WoW or change their existing games to be more like WoW. These companies did that because they were chasing the amount of money Blizzard was making, but these games either weren't as good as WoW or simply didn't do enough to differentiate themselves from WoW to make them viable long term.
They weren't directly chasing Blizzard money (everyone wants blizzard's money), and I don't think anyone had realistic expectations of that. But ALL of their efforts were focused on figuring out how to be revenue positive and successful when 1) MMO's required significant investment, and more ongoing resources and development than most other games 2) One game took 90% of the market, therefore 90% of the revenue.
Free-to-Play changes were a direct result to not being sustainable when people would cut subscriptions to one or at most two per month, and it was always cutting it to WoW. You had to "get your MMO" into that bucket. WoW's addictive nature, and the reality of genre's focus around friends, meant people weren't going to move.
I'm not arguing about success, but it did harm the genre.
In short, Blizzard's intense focus on Pure Addiction via "Keeping up with Joneses," and "Raiding until you drop," was extremely harmful to the MMO market.
This post was edited on 8/2/18 at 12:24 pm
Posted on 8/2/18 at 12:24 pm to Mystery
quote:
Pre-CU was the most fun I have had in an MMO. The community was great. That game was a mess when it came to most things, you could macro yourself through almost anything, including PVP. But it was my favorite.
CU and NGE was a direct result of SOE needing to do something to keep up with WoW. It was a mistake, it killed the game more. But I see why it happened.
SWG and Vanguard were probably the pinnacle of pure MMO "world-building" experience.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 12:31 pm to Freauxzen
Vangaurd had so much potential, but it was a mess when it released and by then the WoW craze had started and the hardcore EQ people were not leaving.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 12:33 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
SWG and Vanguard were probably the pinnacle of pure MMO "world-building" experience.
Real life story. A friend of mine was so addicted to SWG that he caught his kitchen on fire while he had something on the stove. When the smoke alarm was going off and smoke was coming into his computer room he said he still took a few minutes to finish some in game things.
He quit online gaming completely after that episode.Posted on 8/2/18 at 12:42 pm to Mystery
na, cu was fine and needed. nge went off the rails.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 1:11 pm to Mystery
quote:
Are you just wanting him to call other studios dumb?
No, I'm saying lets not blame Blizzard for doing what they always do. That is taking an established formula and streamlining it for a more general audience.
"Dumb" is not what I'd call the other studios, but I believe it's safe to say that copying WoW was not the best business strategy.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 1:14 pm to DoUrden
quote:
Vangaurd had so much potential, but it was a mess when it released and by then the WoW craze had started and the hardcore EQ people were not leaving.
What killed Vanguard for me was all the group quest chains. It made progressing past a certain almost impossible unless you had some buddies to play with.
Fantastic world though. Pantheon actually looks a lot like it.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 1:35 pm to Mystery
quote:
Real life story. A friend of mine was so addicted to SWG that he caught his kitchen on fire while he had something on the stove. When the smoke alarm was going off and smoke was coming into his computer room he said he still took a few minutes to finish some in game things. He quit online gaming completely after that episode.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 1:36 pm to BulldogXero
quote:
What killed Vanguard for me was all the group quest chains. It made progressing past a certain almost impossible unless you had some buddies to play with.
Truth.
Posted on 8/2/18 at 1:37 pm to BulldogXero
quote:
No, I'm saying lets not blame Blizzard for doing what they always do. That is taking an established formula and streamlining it for a more general audience.
Changing the way the market functions via bad practices, is by definition changing the market for the worse.
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