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Message

Natural immunity vs vaccine induced immunity
Posted on 8/3/21 at 4:41 am
Posted on 8/3/21 at 4:41 am
LINK
Covid-19 natural immunity compared to vaccine-induced immunity: The definitive summary
DATED: AUGUST 2, 2021 BY SHARYL ATTKISSON
Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) became one of the latest high-profile figures to get sick with Covid-19, even though he's fully vaccinated. In a statement Monday, Graham said it feels like he has "the flu," but is "certain" he would be worse if he hadn't been vaccinated.
While it's impossible to know whether that's the case, public health officials are grappling with the reality of an increasing number of fully-vaccinated Americans coming down with Covid-19 infections, getting hospitalized, and even dying of Covid. The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) insists vaccination is still the best course for every eligible American. But many are asking if they have better immunity after they're infected with the virus and recover, than if they’re vaccinated.
Increasingly, the answer within the data appears to be ”yes.”
Why does CDC seem to be “ignoring" natural immunity?
In fact, some medical experts have said they’re confounded by public health officials' failure to factor natural and virus-acquired immunity into the Covid equation. Public and media narratives often press the necessity of “vaccination for all,” chiding states where vaccination rates are lowest. And they use vaccination rates and Covid case counts as inverse indicators of how safe it is in a particular state: high vaccination rate = high safety; high case counts = low safety (they claim).
However, vaccination rates alone tell little about a population’s true immune-status. And where high Covid case counts occur, it ultimately means a larger segment of that community ends up better-protected, vaccines aside. That’s according to virologists who point out that fighting off Covid, even without developing any symptoms, leaves people with what’s thought to be more robust and longer-lasting immunity than the vaccines confer.
Hard data counters widespread public misinformation that claimed “virtually all" patients hospitalized and dying of Covid-19 are unvaccinated. Pfizer and Moderna had claimed their vaccines were “100% effective” at preventing serious illness. Many in the media even popularized a propaganda phrase designed to push more people to get vaccinated: "pandemic of the unvaccinated.”
Not so, says CDC and other data.
Recent CDC data found that 74% of those who tested positive for Covid-19 in a Massachusetts analysis had been fully-vaccinated. Equally as troubling for those advocating vaccination-for-all: four out of five people hospitalized with Covid were fully-vaccinated. And CDC said "viral load” — indicating how able the human host is to spread Covid-19 — is about the same among the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Contrary to the infamous misinformation by CDC Director Rochelle Walensky last May, vaccinated people can— and are— spreading Covid. (CDC officials later corrected Walensky's false claim.)
CDC's newest findings on so-called “breakthrough" infections in vaccinated people are mirrored by other data releases.
Illinois health officials recently announced more than 160 fully-vaccinated people have died of Covid-19, and at least 644 been hospitalized; ten deaths and 51 hospitalizations counted in the prior week. Israel’s Health Ministry recently said effectiveness of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine has fallen to 40 percent. Last month, 100 vaccinated British sailors isolated on a ship at sea reportedly came down with Covid seven weeks into their deployment. In July, New Jersey reported 49 fully vaccinated residents had died of Covid; 27 in Louisiana; 80 in Massachusetts.
Nationally, as of July 12, CDC said it was aware of more than 4,400 people who got Covid-19 after being fully vaccinated and had to be hospitalized; and 1,063 fully vaccinated people who died of Covid. But health officials still argue that vaccinated people make up only a small fraction of the seriously ill. Critics counter that CDC’s recent Massachusetts data calls that into question.
But there’s promising news to be found within natural and acquired immunity statistics, according to virologists. As of May 29, CDC estimated more than 120 million Americans— more than one in three— had already battled Covid. While an estimated six-tenths of one-percent died, the other 99.4% of those infected survived with a presumed immune status that appears to be superior to that which comes with vaccination.
If doctors could routinely test to confirm who has fought off and become immune to Covid-19, it would eliminate the practical need or rationale for those protected millions to get vaccinated. It would also allow them to avoid even the slight risk of serious vaccine side effects.
Unfortunately, virologists say no commonly-used test can detect with certainty whether a person is immune. A common misconception is that antibody tests can make that determination. But experts say immunity after infection or exposure often comes without a person producing or maintaining measurable antibodies.
Because of that reality, people who have had asymptomatic infections — infections where they suffered no symptoms -- have no easy way to know that they're immune. However, a growing body of evidence indicates that the millions who know they got Covid can be assured they’re unlikely to suffer reinfection, for at least as long of a time period that scientists have been able to measure. Possibly far beyond.
The following are some of the data and studies regarding immunity acquired after Covid infection.
Longitudinal analysis shows durable and broad immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection with persisting antibody responses and memory B and T cells, July 20, 2021
This study followed 254 Covid-19 patients for up to 8 months and concluded they had “durable broad-based immune responses.” In fact, even very mild Covid-19 infection also protected the patients from an earlier version of “SARS" coronavirus that first emerged around 2003, and against Covid-19 variants. “Taken together, these results suggest that broad and effective immunity may persist long-term in recovered COVID-19 patients,” concludes the study scientists.
Associations of Vaccination and of Prior Infection With Positive PCR Test Results for SARS-CoV-2 in Airline Passengers Arriving in Qatar, June 9, 2021
This study of airline passengers in Qatar found that both vaccination and prior infection were “imperfect” when it comes to preventing positive Covid-19 test results, but that the incidence of reinfection is similarly low in both groups.
Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals, June 1, 2021
This study followed 52,238 employees of the Cleveland Clinic Health System in Ohio.
For previously-infected people, the cumulative incidence of re-infection “remained almost zero.” According to the study, "Not one of the 1,359 previously infected subjects who remained unvaccinated had a [Covid-19] infection over the duration of the study” and vaccination did not reduce the risk. “Individuals who have had [Covid-19] infection are unlikely to benefit from COVID-19 vaccination,” concludes the study scientists.
...
Covid-19 natural immunity compared to vaccine-induced immunity: The definitive summary
DATED: AUGUST 2, 2021 BY SHARYL ATTKISSON
Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) became one of the latest high-profile figures to get sick with Covid-19, even though he's fully vaccinated. In a statement Monday, Graham said it feels like he has "the flu," but is "certain" he would be worse if he hadn't been vaccinated.
While it's impossible to know whether that's the case, public health officials are grappling with the reality of an increasing number of fully-vaccinated Americans coming down with Covid-19 infections, getting hospitalized, and even dying of Covid. The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) insists vaccination is still the best course for every eligible American. But many are asking if they have better immunity after they're infected with the virus and recover, than if they’re vaccinated.
Increasingly, the answer within the data appears to be ”yes.”
Why does CDC seem to be “ignoring" natural immunity?
In fact, some medical experts have said they’re confounded by public health officials' failure to factor natural and virus-acquired immunity into the Covid equation. Public and media narratives often press the necessity of “vaccination for all,” chiding states where vaccination rates are lowest. And they use vaccination rates and Covid case counts as inverse indicators of how safe it is in a particular state: high vaccination rate = high safety; high case counts = low safety (they claim).
However, vaccination rates alone tell little about a population’s true immune-status. And where high Covid case counts occur, it ultimately means a larger segment of that community ends up better-protected, vaccines aside. That’s according to virologists who point out that fighting off Covid, even without developing any symptoms, leaves people with what’s thought to be more robust and longer-lasting immunity than the vaccines confer.
Hard data counters widespread public misinformation that claimed “virtually all" patients hospitalized and dying of Covid-19 are unvaccinated. Pfizer and Moderna had claimed their vaccines were “100% effective” at preventing serious illness. Many in the media even popularized a propaganda phrase designed to push more people to get vaccinated: "pandemic of the unvaccinated.”
Not so, says CDC and other data.
Recent CDC data found that 74% of those who tested positive for Covid-19 in a Massachusetts analysis had been fully-vaccinated. Equally as troubling for those advocating vaccination-for-all: four out of five people hospitalized with Covid were fully-vaccinated. And CDC said "viral load” — indicating how able the human host is to spread Covid-19 — is about the same among the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Contrary to the infamous misinformation by CDC Director Rochelle Walensky last May, vaccinated people can— and are— spreading Covid. (CDC officials later corrected Walensky's false claim.)
CDC's newest findings on so-called “breakthrough" infections in vaccinated people are mirrored by other data releases.
Illinois health officials recently announced more than 160 fully-vaccinated people have died of Covid-19, and at least 644 been hospitalized; ten deaths and 51 hospitalizations counted in the prior week. Israel’s Health Ministry recently said effectiveness of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine has fallen to 40 percent. Last month, 100 vaccinated British sailors isolated on a ship at sea reportedly came down with Covid seven weeks into their deployment. In July, New Jersey reported 49 fully vaccinated residents had died of Covid; 27 in Louisiana; 80 in Massachusetts.
Nationally, as of July 12, CDC said it was aware of more than 4,400 people who got Covid-19 after being fully vaccinated and had to be hospitalized; and 1,063 fully vaccinated people who died of Covid. But health officials still argue that vaccinated people make up only a small fraction of the seriously ill. Critics counter that CDC’s recent Massachusetts data calls that into question.
But there’s promising news to be found within natural and acquired immunity statistics, according to virologists. As of May 29, CDC estimated more than 120 million Americans— more than one in three— had already battled Covid. While an estimated six-tenths of one-percent died, the other 99.4% of those infected survived with a presumed immune status that appears to be superior to that which comes with vaccination.
If doctors could routinely test to confirm who has fought off and become immune to Covid-19, it would eliminate the practical need or rationale for those protected millions to get vaccinated. It would also allow them to avoid even the slight risk of serious vaccine side effects.
Unfortunately, virologists say no commonly-used test can detect with certainty whether a person is immune. A common misconception is that antibody tests can make that determination. But experts say immunity after infection or exposure often comes without a person producing or maintaining measurable antibodies.
Because of that reality, people who have had asymptomatic infections — infections where they suffered no symptoms -- have no easy way to know that they're immune. However, a growing body of evidence indicates that the millions who know they got Covid can be assured they’re unlikely to suffer reinfection, for at least as long of a time period that scientists have been able to measure. Possibly far beyond.
The following are some of the data and studies regarding immunity acquired after Covid infection.
Longitudinal analysis shows durable and broad immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection with persisting antibody responses and memory B and T cells, July 20, 2021
This study followed 254 Covid-19 patients for up to 8 months and concluded they had “durable broad-based immune responses.” In fact, even very mild Covid-19 infection also protected the patients from an earlier version of “SARS" coronavirus that first emerged around 2003, and against Covid-19 variants. “Taken together, these results suggest that broad and effective immunity may persist long-term in recovered COVID-19 patients,” concludes the study scientists.
Associations of Vaccination and of Prior Infection With Positive PCR Test Results for SARS-CoV-2 in Airline Passengers Arriving in Qatar, June 9, 2021
This study of airline passengers in Qatar found that both vaccination and prior infection were “imperfect” when it comes to preventing positive Covid-19 test results, but that the incidence of reinfection is similarly low in both groups.
Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals, June 1, 2021
This study followed 52,238 employees of the Cleveland Clinic Health System in Ohio.
For previously-infected people, the cumulative incidence of re-infection “remained almost zero.” According to the study, "Not one of the 1,359 previously infected subjects who remained unvaccinated had a [Covid-19] infection over the duration of the study” and vaccination did not reduce the risk. “Individuals who have had [Covid-19] infection are unlikely to benefit from COVID-19 vaccination,” concludes the study scientists.
...
Posted on 8/3/21 at 4:53 am to Crimson Wraith
I broke down yesterday and got vaccinated yesterday. I'm regretting it.
I had COVID in March of 2020. Tested positive for antibodies as recently as this year with no COVID-positive tests which were mandated every 2 weeks.
Recently, it has become clear to me that this was a battle I was not going to win despite my best argument. I was going to get the shot or pay my mortgage.
I got shot 1 of 2 yesterday. Woke up at 0300 drenched in sweat with a splitting headache and I NEVER get headaches. Super achy legs and lower back, raised internal temperature, no appetite, dry mouth. I'm not feeling well at all and I'm someone who didn't miss a day of work when I had the real COVID.
Take this information for what it's worth: it's an anecdotal experience. But for me, the vaccine having this impact on me and it being worse than the actual thing is ringing all kinds of alarms at the moment.
I had COVID in March of 2020. Tested positive for antibodies as recently as this year with no COVID-positive tests which were mandated every 2 weeks.
Recently, it has become clear to me that this was a battle I was not going to win despite my best argument. I was going to get the shot or pay my mortgage.
I got shot 1 of 2 yesterday. Woke up at 0300 drenched in sweat with a splitting headache and I NEVER get headaches. Super achy legs and lower back, raised internal temperature, no appetite, dry mouth. I'm not feeling well at all and I'm someone who didn't miss a day of work when I had the real COVID.
Take this information for what it's worth: it's an anecdotal experience. But for me, the vaccine having this impact on me and it being worse than the actual thing is ringing all kinds of alarms at the moment.
Posted on 8/3/21 at 4:53 am to Crimson Wraith
Prepare to be downvoted and scorned by the Puritans of the CDC Pulpit
Posted on 8/3/21 at 4:56 am to VictoryHill
quote:im stunned at the amount of people who just don’t even blink an eye at the harsh reaction so many people experience from the vaccine
I got shot 1 of 2 yesterday. Woke up at 0300 drenched in sweat with a splitting headache and I NEVER get headaches. Super achy legs and lower back, raised internal temperature, no appetite, dry mouth. I'm not feeling well at all and I'm someone who didn't miss a day of work when I had the real COVID.
This isn’t normal
Posted on 8/3/21 at 4:59 am to Pelican fan99
quote:
This isn’t normal
We are being trained. Some of us are more stubborn than others and we must be broken.
Posted on 8/3/21 at 5:07 am to VictoryHill
quote:
VictoryHill
Your job was threatened if you didn’t get jabbed?
Posted on 8/3/21 at 5:10 am to Crimson Wraith
quote:
Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals, June 1, 2021 This study followed 52,238 employees of the Cleveland Clinic Health System in Ohio. For previously-infected people, the cumulative incidence of re-infection “remained almost zero.” According to the study, "Not one of the 1,359 previously infected subjects who remained unvaccinated had a [Covid-19] infection over the duration of the study” and vaccination did not reduce the risk. “Individuals who have had [Covid-19] infection are unlikely to benefit from COVID-19 vaccination,” concludes the study scientists.
I applaud the Cleveland Clinic for their honesty. It is my belief that people who have had covid have the same immunity protection as those who have vax. I hope even more studies are underway.
Posted on 8/3/21 at 5:14 am to idlewatcher
quote:
Your job was threatened if you didn’t get jabbed?
In no certain terms, yes.
-Purposely excluded from work-related events
or
-If in attendance, made to stand around with a mask on like a doofus while everyone else would just be having a grand old time
-Stopped getting work-related e-mails that would normally be sent to me
-Through conversations with my superiors it was made abundantly clear that they prefer I just got jabbed, used our COVID PTO time if I felt sick, and came back when healthy.
I called off today and probably will tomorrow too. This shite sucks.
Posted on 8/3/21 at 5:24 am to Crimson Wraith
quote:Exactly as one would expect. There has been speculation (e.g., Fauci, Walensky, et al) that "mild cases" especially in younger groups may not confer immunity to the same extent as vaccination. I've seen scant (if any) solid work to back such speculation though. Meanwhile, several large studies have established respondent immunity following infection at or greater than that of our best vaccines. i.e., >90%.
Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals, June 1, 2021
This study followed 52,238 employees of the Cleveland Clinic Health System in Ohio.
For previously-infected people, the cumulative incidence of re-infection “remained almost zero.” According to the study, "Not one of the 1,359 previously infected subjects who remained unvaccinated had a [Covid-19] infection over the duration of the study” and vaccination did not reduce the risk. “Individuals who have had [Covid-19] infection are unlikely to benefit from COVID-19 vaccination,” concludes the study scientists.
Rand had it right when he called Fauci out on this.
quote:I'd like to see the work this assertion is based on. It's probably a rare misunderstanding on SA's part. With time following antigen exposure, antibody levels fade, even though a vigorous immune response can still occur. Under those circumstances an individual might not have measurable antibodies.
But experts say immunity after infection or exposure often comes without a person producing or maintaining measurable antibodies.
This post was edited on 8/3/21 at 5:25 am
Posted on 8/3/21 at 5:34 am to VictoryHill
quote:Nearly a year and a half s/p infection, getting vaccinated is medically justified. It may be at some point that we'll find immunity conferred beyond that period, but currently it's not evident.
I had COVID in March of 2020.
In your situation, your decision to get vaxxed should be predicated on the same criteria it would have been had you never been infected. Sounds like that is more or less what you did.
Posted on 8/3/21 at 5:36 am to VictoryHill
quote:Do they not have antivirus software installed?
-Stopped getting work-related e-mails that would normally be sent to me
j/k ...sounds like a bad situation.
Posted on 8/3/21 at 6:15 am to VictoryHill
quote:
I got shot 1 of 2 yesterday. Woke up at 0300 drenched in sweat with a splitting headache and I NEVER get headaches. Super achy legs and lower back, raised internal temperature, no appetite, dry mouth.
Just to give you a preview of what shot 2/2 side effects will look like.
BTW- I have heard others who have previously had the rona and said they regret getting jabbed due to the side effects. I have heard many stories of similar side effects.
Posted on 8/3/21 at 6:20 am to Crimson Wraith
Thank you for this information something I have been looking for awhile.
It is a shame our government is with holding this information from the public.
It is a shame our government is with holding this information from the public.
Posted on 8/3/21 at 6:53 am to VictoryHill
quote:
Take this information for what it's worth: it's an anecdotal experience
When does it become non anecdotal? ive heard this same situation 100s maybe 1000s of times sometimes worse than this...sometimes even killing people...yet there argument against it is its anecdotal...
Posted on 8/3/21 at 6:58 am to Crimson Wraith
quote:
“Individuals who have had [Covid-19] infection are unlikely to benefit from COVID-19 vaccination,” concludes the study scientists.
Basically, what many of us have been saying for weeks, also I wonder if the vaccines have negative effective rates when used on a previous infected person.
I don't really trust anything at this point though, not sure I ever will.
Good luck guys.
Posted on 8/3/21 at 6:59 am to TigerStripes30
quote:
When does it become non anecdotal? ive heard this same situation 100s maybe 1000s of times sometimes worse than this...sometimes even killing people...yet there argument against it is its anecdotal...
Hey now, I'm on your side. This is bullshite and there's no way the vaccine should be worse than the real thing but speaking from experience, it is.
I had trouble getting down the stairs this morning. I feel like the tin man with no oil.
Posted on 8/3/21 at 7:03 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
In your situation, your decision to get vaxxed should be predicated on the same criteria it would have been had you never been infected. Sounds like that is more or less what you did.
Doesn't sound at all like it was his "decision."
Posted on 8/3/21 at 7:06 am to VictoryHill
If the CDC wasn't filled from top to bottom with politicized f*cking GARBAGE, they would NEVER have referred to this gene therapy experimental drug as a vaccine.
Posted on 8/3/21 at 7:13 am to MMauler
One thing that is not deniable, Pfizer, Moderna and J&J have complete indemnity. I have a serious problem with any organization whether public or private mandating something I have no recourse from without it being my decision.
Posted on 8/3/21 at 7:17 am to Crimson Wraith
quote:
But many are asking if they have better immunity after they're infected with the virus and recover, than if they’re vaccinated.
Increasingly, the answer within the data appears to be ”yes.”
I don't find that difficult to believe
But obviously survivorship bias plays a big role into this
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