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re: Victor Cruz WR rankings
Posted on 8/14/19 at 11:16 am to swift
Posted on 8/14/19 at 11:16 am to swift
quote:
quote:
If you were a GM would you choose Evans over Thomas if you had your pick of the two?
Probably not.
That question is relevant to this discussion how?
I mean shite dude, you just called Jameis Winston a top tier QB.
Perhaps I should have said top tier potential.
Brees is a better quarterback but Winston has areas of strength that make him a good choice if you want to get big yardage games at points when other teams are softening up because they have a two score lead. He has a strong arm that in softer coverage with a good receiver will get some yards.
Posted on 8/14/19 at 11:20 am to Anaximander
MT has a substantially better QB in a substantially better offense with a different role than ME.
Trying to point to comp % and YAC as evidence that MT is better is just silly.
You’re dismissing ME like it’s not even a question. I’m not sure what else to say.
Trying to point to comp % and YAC as evidence that MT is better is just silly.
You’re dismissing ME like it’s not even a question. I’m not sure what else to say.
Posted on 8/14/19 at 12:17 pm to swift
To be fair, totally dismissing completion percentage and yac is equally silly. I dont care who is throwing him the ball. Jerry Rice had Joe Montana. Randy Moss had Tom Brady that one insane year. Julio Jones has Matt Ryan and Antonio Brown had Ben Roethlisberger. None of them demolished the NFL record for catch percentage. Argue system all you want. He caught 85% of everything thrown at him, and did it while running every route in the book.
Posted on 8/14/19 at 12:18 pm to SnoopALoop
Hopkins at 3 is not high.
just watch what Hopkins does this year after another year with Watson.
and Mike Evans is overrated . he quits in games and is a baby bitch.
just watch what Hopkins does this year after another year with Watson.
and Mike Evans is overrated . he quits in games and is a baby bitch.
Posted on 8/14/19 at 12:20 pm to 1BamaRTR
quote:
Hopkins was putting up big numbers even with QBs like Hoyer, Savage, and Osweiler
So true. Realistically, OBJ actually is the most overrated WR on that list.
Posted on 8/14/19 at 12:21 pm to ulsaint
I know it may be the P&G glasses, but I really think being reunited with Landry is going to help settle OBJ back down.
Posted on 8/14/19 at 12:42 pm to ForeverEllisHugh
quote:
I know it may be the P&G glasses, but I really think being reunited with Landry is going to help settle OBJ back down.
There are a lot of other things going on that set up well for OBJ.
A new start in a city where the media does not suffocate you as it does in NYC.
A new coach who seems to be more likely to understand OBJ.
A QB who seems to be on the same page as OBL in regards to attitude on the field.
OBJ has never been the Diva he has been made out to be. He is brash but most of the time he is just having fun. He works his arse off to have the best hands in football and I think this move is going to pay off for Cleveland and OBJ.
Posted on 8/14/19 at 12:46 pm to Shiftyplus1
His catch % was incredible, but you can’t ignore the types of passes he’s being targeted on. He’s a slot receiver and his air yards per target shows that.
MT average targeted air yards at 7.7 isn’t in the top 100. ME at 15.7 is 8th.
ME and MT are two completely different receivers in very different systems. Pointing to catch % as evidence that MT is better is silly.
As for YAC, MT was 4.1yac per reception. ME was 3.8. So that’s a wash.
MT average targeted air yards at 7.7 isn’t in the top 100. ME at 15.7 is 8th.
ME and MT are two completely different receivers in very different systems. Pointing to catch % as evidence that MT is better is silly.
As for YAC, MT was 4.1yac per reception. ME was 3.8. So that’s a wash.
Posted on 8/14/19 at 12:50 pm to Anaximander
quote:
Evans leads Thomas in yardage only.
wut
Over the last 3 seasons, Evans has more Yards and TDs and better Y/R and Y/G numbers
quote:
And not a single GM in the NFL would choose Evans over Thomas if given the choice.
Posted on 8/14/19 at 3:37 pm to Anaximander
quote:
not a GM in the country would take Evans over Michael Thomas.
There are people who think Thomas is a product of Brees. So there are probably gms who think the same.
Posted on 8/14/19 at 3:42 pm to PenguinPubes
Meh, top 5 looks solid. I would have Thomas at 5 over Mike Evans, but that’s just me. Really strong group!
I think Michael Thomas is a top 5 TALENT regardless of who’s throwing him the ball, but you have to remember what those other guys have been able to do with Jameis Winston, Eli Manning and whoever got the week-to-week start in Houston before Watson.
I think Michael Thomas is a top 5 TALENT regardless of who’s throwing him the ball, but you have to remember what those other guys have been able to do with Jameis Winston, Eli Manning and whoever got the week-to-week start in Houston before Watson.
Posted on 8/14/19 at 4:13 pm to Shameless
Y’all really are some Beckham apologists. If he went to Bama he’d be the most hated player on this board.
Dude is a total clown
Dude is a total clown
Posted on 8/14/19 at 4:14 pm to ulsaint
He’s a clown but he’s very good at running and catching footballs.
Posted on 8/14/19 at 4:19 pm to GynoSandberg
I disagree but I'll provide some data to back it up, instead of just saying... "I'M RIGHT AND YOU ARE WROING!"
Advanced metrics put Michael Thomas above Mike Evans
MT:
#1 in Catch Rate
#1 in Contested Catch Rate
2 pretty large metrics when it comes to a player who's entire job is to catch the football.
MT
Mike Evans:
Catch Rate: #62nd....
Contested Cath Rate #5
If you have watched any bucs games over the last few years, which I am assuming you have, he drops at least 2 balls every game. Balls that should have easily been caught.
Essentially he doesn't catch the ball any more when he is wide open then if someone is covering him.
Mike Evans
There is a lot more information in the links but when looking at catching the ball, what they are paid to do, MT is much better.
Advanced metrics put Michael Thomas above Mike Evans
MT:
#1 in Catch Rate
#1 in Contested Catch Rate
2 pretty large metrics when it comes to a player who's entire job is to catch the football.
MT
Mike Evans:
Catch Rate: #62nd....
Contested Cath Rate #5
If you have watched any bucs games over the last few years, which I am assuming you have, he drops at least 2 balls every game. Balls that should have easily been caught.
Essentially he doesn't catch the ball any more when he is wide open then if someone is covering him.
Mike Evans
There is a lot more information in the links but when looking at catching the ball, what they are paid to do, MT is much better.
Posted on 8/14/19 at 4:21 pm to Throbinhood
quote:
If you have watched any bucs games over the last few years, which I am assuming you have, he drops at least 2 balls every game.
As for the catch rate, what do you contribute that to? Could it possibly be because of the QB and system he’s in?
quote:If you want to boil it down to generic statements like that, I think it’s a more accurate statement to say that WRs are paid to gets yards and score TDs. Mike Evans has been better at that, no?
There is a lot more information in the links but when looking at catching the ball, what they are paid to do, MT is much better.
This post was edited on 8/14/19 at 4:24 pm
Posted on 8/14/19 at 6:19 pm to swift
quote:
swift
You either didn’t click on the links or just can’t understand basic metrics and data, I’m hoping it’s you just didn’t bother to even click on them...
He’s #56 in the league in “True Catch Rate” which factors in catchable balls thrown to him..... So the, “Could it possibly be because of the QB and system he is in?”.... no, it’s because he doesn’t catch the ball that great.
There’s a reason these stats are called Efficiency stats. When you look at TDs, yards, etc those are so heavily dependent on opportunity and how bad your team is. Like the bucs being terrible and being down late in games and having to throw the ball a lot.
Posted on 8/14/19 at 6:37 pm to Throbinhood
I looked at them earlier but not in much detail.
ME's true catch rate is 81.9%.
MT's true catch rate is 89.3%. Not as drastic as you made it seem.
ME had 4 more dropped passes last year.
Those 4 extra dropped passes and 8% lower catch rate = Michael Thomas is much better?
I still think you can't ignore the offense and what they're asked to do.
MT's average depth of target is 7.7 yards.
ME's average depth of target is 15.7 yards. More than double MT's. At that depth of target and with Brees throwing to him, he should have a better catch rate.
And are we glossing over that MT's catchable target rate is 95%, compared to 75% for ME.
I don't think anyone will argue that ME has better hands, but that's not the deciding factor in whose a better WR.
ETA: And as long as we’re nitpicking, you cited their actual catch rates (which is just catches / targets), not any efficiency data or fancy metric.
This post was edited on 8/14/19 at 7:14 pm
Posted on 8/14/19 at 7:08 pm to swift
quote:...
You either didn’t click on the links or just can’t understand basic metrics and data, I’m hoping it’s you just didn’t bother to even click on them
basic being the keyword.
swift had to go and quantify them for ya
quote:
MT's average depth of target is 7.7 yards.
ME's average depth of target is 15.7 yards. More than double MT's. At that depth of target and with Brees throwing to him, he should have a better catch rate.
Top 10 in catch rate last year
1. Dion Lewis
2. Matt Bredia
3. Christian McCaffery
4. Mike Thomas
5. Jacquiz Rodgers
6. Ito Smith
7. Jalen Richard
8. Theo Riddick
9. Kerryon Johnson
10. Ryan Switzer
Thomas and a 5'8" white slot WR headline the WRs in regards to the great stat of catch %.
Michael Thomas has the lowest depth of target of any WR1 in the league while Brees throws 58% of his throws short of the 1st down marker. He can be the best WR for what we do but it doesnt mean he's the best WR in the league
Posted on 8/14/19 at 7:31 pm to Throbinhood
Let’s do a little hypothetical. Put Michael Thomas on the Bucs with Jameis and Fitzpatrick and bump his average depth of target up to 15.7 yards (same as 2018 Mike Evans). How far do you think that vaunted 89% true catch percentage falls? Or maybe it goes up?
Posted on 8/14/19 at 7:33 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:By far. Including TEs, he’s in the 100s.
Michael Thomas has the lowest depth of target of any WR1 in the league
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