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re: United Methodist Church special session this week

Posted on 2/21/19 at 11:12 am to
Posted by Quidam65
Q Continuum
Member since Jun 2010
19325 posts
Posted on 2/21/19 at 11:12 am to
quote:

I'm not well-versed in this area of theology, but, if I remember my college courses well enough, this sounds like a throwback view from the old days of Calvin -- basic Pre-destination. Am I wrong about that?


Reformed is a synonym for Calvinism. Basically, God picked at the outset of time who would be in and who would be out. Never mind it doesn't square with John 3:16.

(Of course, the mystery for me is why would God create someone who would reject Him in the first place. But I'm not God, that's His call not mine.)
Posted by SSpaniel
Germantown
Member since Feb 2013
29658 posts
Posted on 2/21/19 at 11:15 am to
quote:

God picked at the outset of time who would be in and who would be out.


I always sort of thought that God didn't pick who would chose Him, but He can look through all of time and therefore already knows what choice everyone will make. If that makes sense.
Posted by DeltaDoc
The Delta
Member since Jan 2008
16091 posts
Posted on 2/21/19 at 11:23 am to
People don’t like the thought of Calvinism because they like the thought of choice. If your salvation ultimately depends on your unprompted choice, then Christ’s sacrifice was not enough.

Also, if you believe God knows all, then he can’t learn. He therefore could not learn of your choice to follow him. He already knew. Therefore, the choice necessarily has to be preordained.
Posted by Champagne
Already Conquered USA.
Member since Oct 2007
48700 posts
Posted on 2/21/19 at 11:59 am to
quote:

Reformed is a synonym for Calvinism. Basically, God picked at the outset of time who would be in and who would be out. Never mind it doesn't square with John 3:16. (Of course, the mystery for me is why would God create someone who would reject Him in the first place. But I'm not God, that's His call not mine.)


Based on my limited theological expertise, I'll say that these theological differences, while distinct, don't seem extreme or irreconcilable to me.
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
41870 posts
Posted on 2/21/19 at 3:49 pm to
quote:

Reformed is a synonym for Calvinism. Basically, God picked at the outset of time who would be in and who would be out. Never mind it doesn't square with John 3:16.
I hear that a lot but I don't think there's an actual problem there. In fact, the preceding section of John 3 gives us the context: for one to believe, they must be "born again" by the Spirit. Since not everyone is born again, not everyone can believe.

When I've discussed 3:16 with others, they kept emphasizing the word "whosoever", as if that means anyone can believe. It's not actually saying that. It is saying that anyone and everyone who does believe will be saved and that no one who believes will be cast away, as is said in other passages, too.

As an example: if I said "whosoever dunks this basketball in that regulation-size basketball goal will receive this cookie", that doesn't mean anyone and everyone has the ability to dunk the basketball. It just means that everyone who does dunk the basketball will get the cookie. Likewise, whoever believes in Jesus will have eternal life, but not everyone has the ability to do that.

So who does have the ability to believe? No one. There are dozens of verses that talk about how we are dead in our sins, blind to the truth, unable to believe, and natural enemies of God that hate things things of God. How, then, does an enemy of God seek Christ? He must be made alive, or as Christ said to Nicodemus, he must be born again by the Spirit. This is called "regeneration", whereby the heart of stone is removed and a heart of flesh is given. The eyes and ears are opened and the blind see and the deaf here. Or in other words, Christ's sheep are finally able to hear His voice and follow Him while those not of His flock do not.

quote:

(Of course, the mystery for me is why would God create someone who would reject Him in the first place. But I'm not God, that's His call not mine.)
This sort of question comes naturally for the "Calvinistic" reading of Romans. Paul is making an argument, starting in chapter 1, regarding the sinfulness of mankind and how guilty we are before God and that no one seeks God or turns to Him by faith naturally and that only God's chosen ("elect") will believe. The natural response is as you say: how can God fault someone whom God made to reject Him?

Here's how Paul actually words it:

"You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory" -Romans 1:19-23

The answer is simple: God chose His people before the foundation of the world to show His love and mercy towards in a special way so that He would be praised and receive glory for His goodness. God ordained not to save others to also show His glory in His justice. We all--the elect and reprobate alike--deserve to die in our sins and receive God's wrath for not living up to His perfect moral standard. Everyone is guilty and no one deserves salvation, but God in His mercy ordained to save some people from what they deserve for His own glory.

That election, or predestination, gives God the glory because He is the one who saves us from our sins in every respect: He chose us to be saved before we were born; He sent His Son to die to pay for our sins; He regenerated us through His Spirit to make us willing and able to receive the Gospel by faith; and He keeps us in His hands from falling away from the faith so that we persevere until the end. God receives all the glory for our salvation because He is the one who saves us; we do not save ourselves. If our faith is a work, we deserve salvation for it, or as Paul puts it, we are owed a wage. But faith is God's free gift to us, so that salvation is a gift from God, not a wage earned by man.
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