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re: The early tales in Tolkien's world seem more epic than LOTR/later tales.

Posted on 8/19/17 at 9:53 pm to
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
69945 posts
Posted on 8/19/17 at 9:53 pm to
quote:

And, like the High Elves themselves, they were almost completely gone by the time of the War of the Ring.


Weren't the citizens of gondor descended from numenoreans?

Also, there was the city of Umbar way down the coast below gondor that had black numenoreans
Posted by TheTideMustRoll
Birmingham, AL
Member since Dec 2009
9001 posts
Posted on 8/19/17 at 9:56 pm to
They were distant descendents, but nothing like the Numenoreans of old. Only Aragorn and his fellow Rangers qualified to be considered anything like true Numenoreans.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
69945 posts
Posted on 8/19/17 at 9:58 pm to
So the citizens of gondor..... what blood were they of? Non-edain?
Posted by TheTideMustRoll
Birmingham, AL
Member since Dec 2009
9001 posts
Posted on 8/19/17 at 10:07 pm to
I don't remember if Tolkien ever explicitly says that. Maybe someone else does. My understanding is that, over the centuries, the Numenoreans of Gondor (and elsewhere) had mixed with the lesser indigenous races of Men. Only the Dunedain had kept their bloodlines relatively pure.
Posted by Decisions
Member since Mar 2015
1514 posts
Posted on 8/20/17 at 10:06 am to
quote:

Only Aragorn and his fellow Rangers qualified to be considered anything like true Numenoreans.


I believe it was mentioned that the old blood flowed thickly in Denethor and Faramir's veins. They were definitely the exception, though. I'd say your average Gondorian was of non-edain, non-Numenorean blood. There had been other, lesser houses than merely that of Elendil who held Numenorean blood in the past, descendants of those who came with him on his ships and possibly of Numenoreans who had simply been on the mainland during the Akallabêth (like the previously mentioned Umbar and Pelargir). But they were greatly diminished during the Kinstrife in Gondor and by the Great Plague in both.
Posted by MississippiLSUfan
Brookhaven
Member since Oct 2005
12523 posts
Posted on 8/21/17 at 2:00 pm to
I'd like to see the story of Beren and Luthien. I think that it would be a cool stand alone movie.
This post was edited on 8/21/17 at 2:02 pm
Posted by Sus-Scrofa
Member since Feb 2013
8594 posts
Posted on 9/6/17 at 10:32 pm to
Remember who Tolkien hung around with. I always viewed the story as the tale of the Tolkien world de-narnia-ing itself to become something familiar to our own history eventually.

Posted by Cooter Davenport
Austin, TX
Member since Apr 2012
9006 posts
Posted on 9/7/17 at 4:23 am to
quote:

I always viewed the story as the tale of the Tolkien world de-narnia-ing itself to become something familiar to our own history eventually.


Yes!

This is always how I saw it but never have seen anyone else put it exactly this way.
Posted by Cooter Davenport
Austin, TX
Member since Apr 2012
9006 posts
Posted on 9/7/17 at 4:47 am to
quote:

Posted by Decisions on 8/16/17 at 10:59 pm to HailHailtoMichigan! If I remember correctly the Silmarillion was Tolkien's true passion. Upon bringing it to his publisher, though, he was told that no one else would really care to read what amounted to a fantasy history book.


The Silmarillion is too dry. It's like reading an encyclopedia. It's a fictional cosmology, not a literary narrative.

Before you jump all over me, I love it - but I'm a Tolkien geek.

It's not that it's not "good", it's that the unvarnished, objective truth is that it isn't literary. It's not a tight, concise, human-scale narrative.

It ended up attaining some degree of success, only because it was preceded by a LOTR and the Hobbit, which are literary.

If the Silmarillion had been published first, instead of 30 years later, Tolkien would be unheard of because it would have flopped and they would have refused to publish his other work.

Even now, the only people who read it are Tolkien geeks (us) because we want to basically shoot up with a full syringe of undiluted pure essence of Tolkien. But more broadly, among the general population, there's no desire for that.

People want a story about one quest, on a human scale that's relatable to them, that travels along a heroic quest arc they are familiar with from all mythology, and that has a beginning middle and end. That's why LOTR is set at the ebb of Elvin and really more broadly "magical" power, at a time when the handoff is being made to men, with the heroes being stand-ins for simple rural Britons (Hobbits) doing battle against the last gasp of a long-ebbing evil power (because that makes it defeatable by a human scale opposition). All of those attributes make it relatable, which a galactic-scale battle between alien demi-gods just isn't.
Posted by LSU49er
Bastrop, LA
Member since Aug 2017
664 posts
Posted on 9/7/17 at 11:29 am to
You could do so many spin off movies with so many parts in all the books. I, personally would love to see more about the dragons, or the eagles. There's so much history and backstory you could make movies about. Or even when Legolas and Gimli went on their adventures exploring the glittering caves and fangorn. Those would be awesome.
Posted by TheTideMustRoll
Birmingham, AL
Member since Dec 2009
9001 posts
Posted on 9/9/17 at 10:08 am to
The Silmarillion is unlike anything else in literature. It's really more experimental than people give it credit for. By itself it would be confusing and impenetrable. But, taken in context with The Hobbit and LoTR, it deepens those stories far beyond any other fictional world of which I am aware. I still catch new things in LoTR that refer back to events and stories in The Silmarillion every time I re-read it. The entire tone of LoTR is actually changed by it. Taken by itself, LoTR is primarily an exciting story, full of danger and adventure. Taken with full knowledge of The Silmarillion, it becomes a very, very sad story, and that is the way Tolkien intended it, I think.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
69945 posts
Posted on 9/10/17 at 1:48 am to
quote:

The Silmarillion is unlike anything else in literature. It's really more experimental than people give it credit for. By itself it would be confusing and impenetrable. But, taken in context with The Hobbit and LoTR, it deepens those stories far beyond any other fictional world of which I am aware. I still catch new things in LoTR that refer back to events and stories in The Silmarillion every time I re-read it. The entire tone of LoTR is actually changed by it. Taken by itself, LoTR is primarily an exciting story, full of danger and adventure. Taken with full knowledge of The Silmarillion, it becomes a very, very sad story, and that is the way Tolkien intended it, I think.
By "sad", do you mean that LOTR takes place during the last days of the great races of elves and men in middle earth?
Posted by CoachChappy
Member since May 2013
32972 posts
Posted on 9/11/17 at 3:08 pm to
quote:

Only the Dunedain had kept their bloodlines relatively pure.

You are forgetting Imrahil and the knights of Dol Amroth
Posted by WWarthog
Fox Island, WA
Member since Sep 2017
4 posts
Posted on 9/11/17 at 6:27 pm to
"Weren't the citizens of gondor descended from numenoreans?"

Yes, but by the Third Age, both elves and men had "dwindled" far from previous heights.
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