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The early tales in Tolkien's world seem more epic than LOTR/later tales.

Posted on 8/16/17 at 3:05 pm
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
69250 posts
Posted on 8/16/17 at 3:05 pm
Not sure if this was meant to be or not, but anyone who reads all of tolkien's legendarium would notice how epic and huge the early history was. The dark lord was much more powerful than sauron, the elvish armies were much bigger and stronger. The cities and kingdoms were powerful, and the gods played a much more active role.

Just one example:


In the time of the LOTR, there was one balrog who was presented as an epic foe beyond the power of anyone but gandalf.

In the earlier history, there were thousands of Balrogs present at the battles, and they were fought by men and elves.
Posted by pvilleguru
Member since Jun 2009
60453 posts
Posted on 8/16/17 at 7:45 pm to
A movie featuring some of the earlier stories could be cool.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
69250 posts
Posted on 8/16/17 at 8:27 pm to
quote:

A movie featuring some of the earlier stories could be cool.
Yes, but the problem is that the early history (the silmarillion) spanned thousands of years and featured an innumerable number of people.

And to make a film about a specific event in the early history, like the fall of gondolin or the fall of numenor, would require an immense amount of background knowledge.
Posted by pvilleguru
Member since Jun 2009
60453 posts
Posted on 8/16/17 at 9:03 pm to
quote:

the problem is that the early history (the silmarillion) spanned thousands of years

The stories featured people that pretty much could live forever unless someone killed them. The timeframe could be shortened considerably and no one would really bat an eye.
Posted by Decisions
Member since Mar 2015
1471 posts
Posted on 8/16/17 at 10:59 pm to
If I remember correctly the Silmarillion was Tolkien's true passion. Upon bringing it to his publisher, though, he was told that no one else would really care to read what amounted to a fantasy history book.

So Tolkien went back to the drawing board and came up with tLotR as a way to justify his true love. And who would have thought it, people did wind up liking the Silmarillion (like us!), though only after being hooked by the original trilogy.
Posted by biglego
Ask your mom where I been
Member since Nov 2007
76176 posts
Posted on 8/16/17 at 11:37 pm to
Silmarillion doesn't really lend itself to movie form but individual stories could be taken from it. Would be cool to see the Valar vs Morgoth. The destruction of the lamps, or of the trees by Ungoliant.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
69250 posts
Posted on 8/17/17 at 3:16 am to
quote:

Ungoliant
I forgot about ole Ungoliant

Yet another example of things being more epic in earlier history.

Shelob was Ungoliant's baby
Posted by Sneaky__Sally
Member since Jul 2015
12364 posts
Posted on 8/17/17 at 8:16 am to
quote:

Not sure if this was meant to be or not, but anyone who reads all of tolkien's legendarium would notice how epic and huge the early history was. The dark lord was much more powerful than sauron, the elvish armies were much bigger and stronger. The cities and kingdoms were powerful, and the gods played a much more active role.

Just one example:


In the time of the LOTR, there was one balrog who was presented as an epic foe beyond the power of anyone but gandalf.

In the earlier history, there were thousands of Balrogs present at the battles, and they were fought by men and elves.


I personally don't think the same "last battle for survival of humans / middle earth" type of pressure existed as much though. You need that for a story in the traditional epic fantasy sense where its the last chance effort to save everyone.

- Silmarillion however its spelled does rock though.
This post was edited on 8/17/17 at 8:18 am
Posted by Scruffy
Kansas City
Member since Jul 2011
72023 posts
Posted on 8/17/17 at 11:46 am to
quote:

In the earlier history, there were thousands of Balrogs present at the battles, and they were fought by men and elves.
In earlier battles, there was a Lord of the Balrogs who rivaled Sauron in power.
Posted by MFn GIMP
Member since Feb 2011
19282 posts
Posted on 8/17/17 at 2:41 pm to
quote:

Silmarillion doesn't really lend itself to movie form but individual stories could be taken from it.

I wish that HBO or Netflix would make a series of the Silmarillion.
Posted by pilsnerpusher
Member since Sep 2009
1360 posts
Posted on 8/17/17 at 10:26 pm to
I could have sworn I read somewhere that there were 7 Balrogs at the most. The captain of the balrogs had an epic fight with glorfindel at the fall of gondolin. The offspring of Glaurung (Dragons) were more numerous.

But, yes, if they could pull it off a movie on the fall of Gondolin would be incredible.
Posted by Decisions
Member since Mar 2015
1471 posts
Posted on 8/18/17 at 6:22 am to
quote:

The captain of the balrogs had an epic fight with glorfindel at the fall of gondolin.


Actually it was Ecthelion of the Fountain who slew Gothmog at the Fall of Gondolin. They dueled until he was disarmed, at which point Ecthelion rammed the beast and plunged both of them into his namesake fountain to drown.
Posted by TheTideMustRoll
Birmingham, AL
Member since Dec 2009
8906 posts
Posted on 8/18/17 at 7:14 pm to
That's kind of the point. Elves were much more powerful than men could ever be, especially the High Elves who had lived for centuries in the presence of the gods. Morgoth, their chief foe, was a god himself. Sauron was only one of his lieutenants. By the time of LotR, Elves have for the most part departed Middle Earth. Men have assumed the dominion that Eru, the Creator, intended them to have. That was what made the return of Sauron so dire. Had the Elves still remained, they could have defeated him, whether he recovered the Ring or not. But the Elves were almost all gone, and indeed, other than providing some shelter and advice when needed, they played almost no role in the War of the Ring. It was left to Men to defeat the Dark Lord, which proved to be a task completely beyond their power. Only the destruction of the Ring allowed them to emerge victorious.

tldr: Sauron was a last feeble gasp of the dark power with which the Elves had contended, and yet even that was stronger than Men could ever hope to defeat on their own. Elves were more than mortals, if less than gods.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
69250 posts
Posted on 8/18/17 at 9:23 pm to
That makes sense.

Done correctly, a movie based on a silmarillion tale would be absolutely epic with the battle scenes.

The siege of Angband? Siege of Gondolin? Oh my god it could be incredible.
Posted by Decisions
Member since Mar 2015
1471 posts
Posted on 8/18/17 at 9:37 pm to
Actually, it took Sauron the better part of an age to wear down the Race of Man to the point where he had a chance of winning. Don't forget, the might of Numenor was such that he admitted defeat without so much as a passing resistance.

I like to think of the Last Alliance as a meeting of the Man and Elven races in a hallway going opposite directions. Equal for that one brief moment but soon to be separated in power once again. And those men were merely a shadow of Numenor's old power.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
69250 posts
Posted on 8/18/17 at 9:41 pm to
quote:

Don't forget, the might of Numenor was such that he admitted defeat without so much as a passing resistance.

He willingly allowed himself to be taken prisoner in numenor, so he could cause strife and discord from within.
Posted by biglego
Ask your mom where I been
Member since Nov 2007
76176 posts
Posted on 8/18/17 at 11:55 pm to
I think Sauron took that strategy Bc he knew he couldn't beat the Numenors in a direct fight
Posted by pilsnerpusher
Member since Sep 2009
1360 posts
Posted on 8/19/17 at 11:02 am to
Yeah, you're right. Glorfindel dueled a different balrog during the escape and defeated it but was pulled over the side of a cliff as the balrog fell.
Posted by the smoke monster
USA USA USA
Member since Aug 2010
4507 posts
Posted on 8/19/17 at 3:13 pm to
The battles in The Silmarillion are definitely on a much much bigger scale. I would love to see it adapted as a Netflix series or something. I think you could skip a lot of the creation of middle earth stuff and start with the awakening of the elves and still make it work well.

Fingolfin vs Morgoth was one of the best things I've ever read.
Posted by TheTideMustRoll
Birmingham, AL
Member since Dec 2009
8906 posts
Posted on 8/19/17 at 7:42 pm to
True, but the Numenoreans were effectively the High Elves of Men, granted power and life beyond that of their kin by the gods. And, like the High Elves themselves, they were almost completely gone by the time of the War of the Ring.
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