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re: Historical monuments okay or not
Posted on 8/15/17 at 12:27 pm to beerJeep
Posted on 8/15/17 at 12:27 pm to beerJeep
quote:
So your argument isn't that racism is bad. It isn't slavery is bad. Nor genocide. It's rebelling against ones country that is the straw that breaks the camels back.
All three are bad. But if you're asking why AMERICA should memorialize someone one of the first questions I'll ask is what did they do for the country? If your answer is: they committed treason... well, that's not good enough for me.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 12:28 pm to beerJeep
I'm looking for a picture of it.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 12:28 pm to beerJeep
You can't judge historical figures by modern standards. They were a product of their time, and should only be judged by the standards of that time. Unless that is done, the lefties better remember that it might be statues of Robert E. Lee today, but tomorrow it may the statues or their heroes coming down.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 12:28 pm to beerJeep
No, only because Genghis Grill sucks.
Hitler's Hibachi sounds tasty though.
Hitler's Hibachi sounds tasty though.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 12:32 pm to WheelRoute
quote:
But if you're asking why AMERICA should memorialize someone one of the first questions I'll ask is what did they do for the country? If your answer is: they committed treason... well, that's not good enough for me.
So you're saying the good outweighs the bad? What about the good Robert e lee did for the country, both before and after the Civil War?
Posted on 8/15/17 at 12:33 pm to beerJeep
It was a different time. The way humanity treated one another was simply different. Doesn't make it right, just was. To say that George Washington isn't worthy of praise because he owned slaves is asinine. Owning slaves was something that the elite did for a long time all around the world. Again, that doesn't make it right, just was. He helped give birth to the idea of equality for all men. An idea that would spread to everyone of all races, religions, sexes, etc. At the time, the idea was only for a few, but it started the conversation on what it means to truly be free and equal. Eventually, women were able to vote, blacks were freed from slavery, so on and so forth.
The same goes for the other historical figures you listed. Yes, they committed atrocities. But history hasn't forgotten that. That doesn't mean they should be erased from history. They existed, and their actions had a lasting and profound impression on humanity. To destroy their memory would be a disservice to the future. The future needs to know about these people. They need to learn why things happened the way they did and how to avoid a repeat of the bad.
I understand why people want to remove Confederate statues from public places, especially government buildings. They represent a very dark and tragic time in our history. But to destroy them would be a mistake. They need to be preserved in an appropriate setting. If we just destroy them and forget what happened, history will repeat itself, and we will have learned nothing.
As for the dirt bags who want to dig up grave sites of dead Confederate soldiers, they can eat shite. Those men are dead. Leave them alone. (Not part of the OP, but thought there was some relevance.)
The same goes for the other historical figures you listed. Yes, they committed atrocities. But history hasn't forgotten that. That doesn't mean they should be erased from history. They existed, and their actions had a lasting and profound impression on humanity. To destroy their memory would be a disservice to the future. The future needs to know about these people. They need to learn why things happened the way they did and how to avoid a repeat of the bad.
I understand why people want to remove Confederate statues from public places, especially government buildings. They represent a very dark and tragic time in our history. But to destroy them would be a mistake. They need to be preserved in an appropriate setting. If we just destroy them and forget what happened, history will repeat itself, and we will have learned nothing.
As for the dirt bags who want to dig up grave sites of dead Confederate soldiers, they can eat shite. Those men are dead. Leave them alone. (Not part of the OP, but thought there was some relevance.)
Posted on 8/15/17 at 12:36 pm to dbeck
quote:
I'm looking for a picture of it.
Good for you. Still doesn't answer why statues of him are okay, even if it's in a public square. He murdered countless people. Commited genocide. Was racist. Yet we immortalize him.
Either we judge all historical figures by today's standards. Or we accept that they were of a different time where things were different. It's quite easy. And to say oh this statue is bad because he's a racist and fought for slavery, yet completely ignoring statues of men who committed straight up genocide and mass enslavement is both asinine and highly hypocritical.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 12:42 pm to beerJeep
quote:
So you're saying the good outweighs the bad?
No. This is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that what we consider bad now was not considered bad at the time. You cannot fight every battle at once, and some issues have to ripen before change can be effected.
This was not the case with Lee. He led an armed rebellion that killed tens of thousands and immiserated his supporters. There is no balancing test for this. Treason was just as awful then as it is now. What's more, he existed at an opportunity where he was presented with a clear choice on how to come down on the issue of slavery at a time when it's existence was precarious and susceptible to elimination, and he chose to side with its supporters. He could've fought to end slavery, and his voice and the respect he commanded would've been powerful. He chose poorly and he deserves the stain on his honor from his choice.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 12:44 pm to WheelRoute
quote:
He led an armed rebellion that killed tens of thousands and immiserated his supporter
So did the native Americans. Are you saying native Americans are horrible and don't deserve statues in their honor?
quote:
He could've fought to end slavery
The north didn't fight to end slavery. It fought to keep the south. They only pivioted to ending slavery to cripple the south economically during the war. Lincoln was a horrible racist and didn't care about the plight of the average slave unless it was advantageous to him. In fact, he wanted to ship em back down south.
This post was edited on 8/15/17 at 12:46 pm
Posted on 8/15/17 at 12:45 pm to beerJeep
quote:
How about George Washington? The racist slave owner whom rebelled and founded a country built on slavery?
I'm not aware Washington is honored for his defense of the institution of slavery.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 12:45 pm to WheelRoute
quote:
if you're asking why AMERICA should memorialize someone one of the first questions I'll ask is what did they do for the country? If your answer is: they committed treason... well, that's not good enough for me.
Well said.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 12:45 pm to beerJeep
1 - I would ask what historical value they possess.
2 - I would ask what historical value the location presents.
3 - if the answer to 1 and 2 is "none" then I wouldn't really consider it historical.
Just because they are old, doesn't mean they have any historical value. Unless it is to point out how endeared people were to a losing cause 50 years after the fact in places which no battles were fought.
How about honoring the leaders of the nations and armies they defeated, because that is more topical to the current conversation.
2 - I would ask what historical value the location presents.
3 - if the answer to 1 and 2 is "none" then I wouldn't really consider it historical.
Just because they are old, doesn't mean they have any historical value. Unless it is to point out how endeared people were to a losing cause 50 years after the fact in places which no battles were fought.
quote:
How do you feel about honoring and immortalizing Julius Caesar? Alexander the Great? Ghengis khan? Nero? Several of the British kings? Damn near any and all leaders of the separatist movements that created many of the countries we know today? How about George Washington? The racist slave owner whom rebelled and founded a country built on slavery?
How about honoring the leaders of the nations and armies they defeated, because that is more topical to the current conversation.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 12:47 pm to beerJeep
The great thing about using terms like racism (or any -ism) is that they have very fluid definitions and can be determined by those in power.
The puppet masters want to erase history (or invalidate it) because they want to use the same tactics to gain power. The useful idiots on the streets think this is truly about racism and helping the poor souls that can't help themselves (a racist/bigoted thought to begin with).
The democrats are the richest, whitest people in America. They have the media as their propaganda machine using a handful of racist idiots to continue to label their enemies. Yet, they are exactly what they are portraying the other side as... racist, white fascists.
The puppet masters want to erase history (or invalidate it) because they want to use the same tactics to gain power. The useful idiots on the streets think this is truly about racism and helping the poor souls that can't help themselves (a racist/bigoted thought to begin with).
The democrats are the richest, whitest people in America. They have the media as their propaganda machine using a handful of racist idiots to continue to label their enemies. Yet, they are exactly what they are portraying the other side as... racist, white fascists.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 12:48 pm to Spock's Eyebrow
quote:
I'm not aware Washington is honored for his defense of the institution of slavery.
Are you saying he didn't defend the institution of slavery? I mean, he could have made slavery illegal in his new formed country.
White silence is violence and all that jazz.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 12:49 pm to TheFonz
quote:
You can't judge historical figures by modern standards.
Agree
quote:
Unless that is done, the lefties better remember that
The KKK was started by the Dems
Posted on 8/15/17 at 12:55 pm to 9th life
quote:
Just because they are old, doesn't mean they have any historical value. Unless it is to point out how endeared people were to a losing cause 50 years after the fact in places which no battles were fought.
The statues coming down has nothing to do with historical value. The left and anti-monument folk want them down because they "defended slavery and were racist"
Well. So did countless other historical figures. Yet they are immortilized, have businesses named after them, etc. You can't say this man is bad because slavery but oh this guy is okay even though he was a racist and own slaves because xyz.
Either we tear down all statues of slave owners or we be honest with ourselves and realize
1. They're inanimate objects.
2. Times were different back then
3. They're fricking inanimate objects.
4. We have MUCH BIGGER FISH TO TRY THAN MOTHER frickING STATUES OF LONG DEAD MEN.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 12:55 pm to beerJeep
quote:
Are these figures okay? If so, why are they okay?
You are asking for intellectual honesty and consistency about an issue that is based on pure emotion. I doubt any of the people that participated in taking down the statue in Durham thought very much about what they were doing. In time they very well may turn their attention to monuments dedicated to our founding fathers. This is part of a social and political movement so where it stops nobody knows.
If this movement had not started and those statues remained for another 200-300 years then they would probably be looked upon as the other ancient examples you mentioned. Then again who knows maybe their will be a sudden demand to destroy all monuments dedicated to western civilization.
This post was edited on 8/15/17 at 12:56 pm
Posted on 8/15/17 at 12:57 pm to beerJeep
you put historical in your title.
I assumed that called into question their historical value.
I assumed that called into question their historical value.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 12:58 pm to beerJeep
quote:
Either we tear down all statues of slave owners or we be honest with ourselves and realize
1. They're inanimate objects.
2. Times were different back then
3. They're fricking inanimate objects.
4. We have MUCH BIGGER FISH TO TRY THAN MOTHER frickING STATUES OF LONG DEAD MEN.
You seem rustled.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 1:00 pm to WheelRoute
quote:
that what we consider bad now was not considered bad at the time
I'm pretty sure that slaves considered it bad at the time.
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