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re: Spinoff Thread -- Handgun Stopping Power
Posted on 3/22/16 at 3:03 pm to AlxTgr
Posted on 3/22/16 at 3:03 pm to AlxTgr
quote:
My wife has one of these. I could not believe how small the cartridge is on those. Seems almost worthless. It is actually worthless for her since she cannot rack the slide.
So, when bapple (a professional, I might add) harps on "the shooter should carry and fire the largest firearm he/she is able to handle, comfortably" - now you're picking up on the subtleties of that advice, right?
Bigger slide means much easier to slide. I have a Russian made Big Bear Makarov - more or less a stamped metal Walther PPK made by illiterates working off stolen plans - easily 1.5 to 2 times (maybe more) the force is required to fully rack that slide than of a Sig P226 or a Glock 17. AND you get less purchase on the gun with the strong hand while you're doing so because the grip surface is significantly smaller.
This post was edited on 3/22/16 at 3:04 pm
1
Posted on 3/22/16 at 3:06 pm to theenemy
quote:
You shoot until the threat is stopped whether that is 1 round or 50 rounds
This is proper individual combat tactics. You don't "waste" rounds during an active fight, but you don't reserve them, either. You certainly don't save rounds for threats that haven't materialized. We'll deal with that when it comes. But you finish the fight you have with the ammo you have.
It is an art to balance your ammo supply, hit probability and even suppressive fire needs, but it is an important balance. Important enough to take seriously.
Posted on 3/22/16 at 3:07 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
Stopping power is a very real thing
The problem is the usage of the word "stopping." Does it mean the capacity to physically stop a human being and push him/her back? Or does it mean the ability to incapacitate ("stop") a human being after one shot? The average person would believe it is the former due to Hollywood.
And "stop" in my mind does not rely on the perception of pain, like shooting a threat only once in an area that doesn't guarantee instant incapacitation (brain stem or pelvic girdle). This, to me, is a psychological stop since the person is still capable of fighting, hence, not "stopped." If the person is physically incapable of continuing the fight, meaning they have physically been "stopped", this is more of a "stop" in my mind.
This is why "stopping power" is a confusing and loaded term.
quote:
My wife has one of these. I could not believe how small the cartridge is on those. Seems almost worthless. It is actually worthless for her since she cannot rack the slide.
She's probably doing it the wrong way or the gun is way too small. The recoil spring on a 25 ACP, even with a very short recoil spring, is pretty easy to rack for anyone. If it's a hammer-fired gun (like a Beretta Jetfire), it will have some extra resistance from the hammer. If that's the case, manually retract the hammer before racking the slide and it will be easier since you're only pushing against one single spring.
Posted on 3/22/16 at 3:09 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:No, not at all. That thought just came into my mind at the mention of the caliber. The wife is never going to carry or even shoot a handgun. She can't even explain why she has it other than it may have been a gift. The damn thing was stolen from us and then returned by the police some 11 years later
So, when bapple (a professional, I might add) harps on "the shooter should carry and fire the largest firearm he/she is able to handle, comfortably" - now you're picking up on the subtleties of that advice, right?
Posted on 3/22/16 at 3:15 pm to bapple
Well I've never shot a person, but when you send a .30-06 bullet through both shoulders of a 110 pound doe and it drops without hardly flinching, that's stopping power. Instantly fricked up beyond all ability to do anything and likely completely dead when it hit the ground. Insides completely turned into some unidentifiable gelatinous goop, bones broken and scattered everywhere, and very dead very fast. You'll never get that from a regular handgun. 10mm/.357mag are generally considered the top end of self defense handgun performance, and neither one of those is going to produce a chest cavity full of jello and an exit hole the size of a golf ball and bury itself 3" deep in a tree after that.
It's two vastly different levels of terminal performance.
It's two vastly different levels of terminal performance.
Posted on 3/22/16 at 3:20 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
It's two vastly different levels of terminal performance.
Completely agree there. I guess more than anything I was just using your comment as an example of defining the term "stop", which how you describe it, has to do with the body stopping all function than the body physically being moved and stopped.
I have this imagery of a person taking a shotgun to the chest and getting thrown back through a window. I'm just trying to dispel that imagery because it doesn't work that way.
But you know that anyway.
Posted on 3/22/16 at 5:28 pm to Hammertime
quote:Most rely on the FBI's list of ammo that they have tested and approved.
Don't most bigger departments run their own SD gun, caliber, and brand bullet tests every couple of years? I'm almost positive LSP, STPSO, BRPD, and JPSO do.
FBI test protocol, using calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin, requires the bullet to penetrate a minimum of 12" and a maximum of 18" from a distance of 10 feet. They have deemed that this level of penetration is typically sufficient to reach vital (heart, aorta, spinal column) organs. Lungs are "semi-vital" organs. [Bones are rarely considered to be targets that will yield physiological stops with handguns.]
FWIW 12" of penetration in 10% ordnance gelatin (ballistics gel) does not necessarily mean it will penetrate 12" in a human or an animal. 10% gel replicates human muscle tissue pretty well (I'm told that 20% gel is a better, but most of the world has migrated to using 10% gel), and assuming it's properly calibrated, it affords "apples to apples" comparisons. That's all balllistics gel is -- a comparator.
Getting adequate penetration into people or other animals often means shooting through cartilage and bone. Really small caliber bullets (like .22's and .25's) are lethal, but don't consistently do a very good job of penetrating ribs/bones/skulls. (In fact very few handguns consistently do well at penetrating skulls.)
So take the gel tests for what they are -- a means of comparing one cartridge against another.
Posted on 3/22/16 at 5:32 pm to X123F45
1. Powerball isn't designed to fragment.
2. There are plenty of cartridges that meet the FBI penetration requirement and consistently expand to a greater diameter than Powerball, or Federal EFMJ or Hornady Critical Defense (or any of the the other polymer-nosed bullets).
2. There are plenty of cartridges that meet the FBI penetration requirement and consistently expand to a greater diameter than Powerball, or Federal EFMJ or Hornady Critical Defense (or any of the the other polymer-nosed bullets).
Posted on 3/22/16 at 8:16 pm to Clames
quote:
Clames
Sweet grips on those handguns
Posted on 3/22/16 at 8:37 pm to FightinTigersDammit
Over years I had kill a few deer with different handguns, from .38, .40 and .44 mag. Hand loading for them, I found the most important thing was the bullet. Speed came second for the best knock down power.
Over all, of course the .44 mag had the best killing/knock down power, but the .38 always did the job, but not flipping them like the .40 and .44.
Over all, of course the .44 mag had the best killing/knock down power, but the .38 always did the job, but not flipping them like the .40 and .44.
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